can someone resolve this debate i am having with my partner

i dont think i have managed to convince him YET that he is wrong lol

I know this is a bit OT, but - you are joking right?  Sure this can happen!  Honest.  Look it up.
 
ETA - oops, someone already said this - sorry.  Ignore me.  All the packing for my holiday (gloat gloat) has fried my brain!

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

i dont think i have managed to convince him YET that he is wrong lol

I know this is a bit OT, but - you are joking right?  Sure this can happen!  Honest.  Look it up.

ETA - oops, someone already said this - sorry.  Ignore me.  All the packing for my holiday (gloat gloat) has fried my brain!

lol its cool, i cant tell him i'm wrong though... i'm hardly ever wrong, but when i am... oh boy!!!

ORIGINAL: DumDog

good points. but its two different worlds. the show dog world and the working dog world.
they're vastly different.
working dogs are almost always some sort of outcross or first cross pups. the dogmen i know that have sight hounds, terriers, and catch dogs do first crosses all the time. they want a first cross Grey/Bulldog to increase the gameness and toughness so the dog can run through a briar patch and not come out the other side looking like a sniveling pin cushion(it was told to me that way, those arent my own words)

I meant cross breeding in general.  So this answers my questions.  No, it's not alway irresponsible to crossbreed.

all of our breeds came from cross breeding. but we're not making anything better. we're maintaining. and thats ALL.
think about the phrase "betterment of the breed" ... whats that supposed to mean? how much better CAN they get? HOW can you make them better by keeping the gene pool as deep as a parking lot puddle?

That's what I really, really want to know myself.

its not a challenge, my questions, but simply a question.

My questions are always challenges, but not because I'm trying to challenge someone.  I just want them to challenge their own opinion/belief/fact and see if it withstands the assault.  If it stays true through testing, it's a good one to keep.  It's a true test of character, in my experience, when a person challenges their own belief, and the belief cannot sustain a test, to see if they keep it or not.  It's alarming how many people put their hands over their eyes, ears, and mouth to prevent any future challenge.  Instead of considering the belief might be better cast off.

yes you run the risk of crossing two breeds with the same problem and getting puts with that problem... but thats why you do health tests. if both parents check out ok, and one has the hip dysplaysia  gene but the other dog has no history of having hip problems in the entire breed but its still a herding/working breed similar to the other.... wouldnt you WANT to cross that?
wouldnt THAT be making the breed better?

It makes perfect SCIENTIFIC sense.



DumDog, I'm totally recruiting you next time there's a hearty debate that needs a good dose of, oh I don't know, someone else who thinks like me.  AHAHAHA

ORIGINAL: glenmar

OK, first, I realize that this is your sister doing this and not you, so my apologies in advance for the rant, but dag nab it.  Cockers happen to be a breed near and dear to my heart and back yard breeders are RUINING the breed by just willy nilling breeding anything that has reproductive organs.  There are a LOT of genetic conditions in cockers that have to be very carefully screened to reduce the possibility of passing those conditions on to another generation.  For example, if GRANDMA developed epilepsy later in life, not due to an injury, her offspring shouldn't be bred because now we know that a genetic weakness exists for epilepsy in the lines.  Does your sister even KNOW the medical history of her bitches parents, let alone grandparents?

Seeing the vet regularly isn't testing for genetic weakness.  Seeing the vet regularly isn't proving the dog in a venue to be absolutely certain that she DESERVES to be bred.  Only the best of the best in any breed should be used for breeding.  Not just because the dog is cute, not because lots of people are interested and the pups will have good homes.  Seeing the vet regularly doesn't insure proper temperment.  This willy nilly throwing together of dogs is WHY we have "bratty" cockers, or cockers with "attitude".  In many cases it is not totally the owners fault for not properly training, it is the fault of the backyard breeder who didn't think about all the aspects to insure a healthy and stable animal.

I'm sorry to rant.  But this kind of ignorant and irresponsible behavior makes me sick to my stomach.  Please tell your sister to educate herself and do some research before she mates her bitch again.

 
 
I am with you 110%... learn about the breed and  all the possible problem that can with it..... I am a cocker owner... and MAY someday be a breeder(years from now).. but I have a quality show breeder as a mentor... OFA and CERF are bare min.. does you sister know the lines? the health of the parents? g parents, gg parents so on and so forth? if not she shouln't be breeding her at all?  Does her dog meet breed standard? as so may don't... BYB is a an all time high.. and cockers are a very popular breed... but this is no reason to breed her!!! how old is this bitch anyways?? Sorry jmo

quote:

Unless a bitch is
(1) dog aggressive and has to be tied to a rape stand for breeding or

I don't think I could ever use ANYTHING referred to as a "rape" anything for anything to do with breeding. It just made me naseaus.... lol

 
Btw, The proper term is breeding stand.  It is a normal tool used in animal husbandry.  Really useful when breeding large animals and doing AI's.  It is also used to prevent injury to both parties when breeding uncooperative females.   It's not just for dog aggressive females.
 
 

talenak, my response was in the context of this thread and the situation described in the OP.  I fail to see why anyone would be crossbreeding a JRT and an American Cocker.  If someone's decision to breed is based on whether the dogs can be "sold as pedigreed", then I don't think they are breeding for the right reasons regardless of breed or breeds involved.

Of course crossbreeding and outcrossing has it's purposes (Alaskan Huskies are the first thing that come to my mind).

all of our breeds came from cross breeding. but we're not making anything better. we're maintaining. and thats ALL.
think about the phrase "betterment of the breed" ... whats that supposed to mean? how much better CAN they get? HOW can you make them better by keeping the gene pool as deep as a parking lot puddle?

My knowledge of breeding and genetics is limited strictly to German Shepherds and in that regard I think I have it easy b/c they are such a popular breed worldwide, there is absolutely no need for outcrossing and there are already breeds that are GSDs outcrossed (Saarloos Wolfhund is my favorite).  In my experience, when good GSD breeders breed for working dogs, they are looking to maintain health (free of hip dysplasia, vW disease, epilepsy, etc) and build on temperament. They also need to maintain correct working structure (which Kenya has but she would be laughed out of the AKC show ring) and outcrossing would really put structure in jeopardy.  I don't know how it works since I'm not a geneticist, but apparently sound temperament, strong working drives, courage...are influenced by genetics.  Since there's plenty of great GSDs to choose from temperament-wise, there's just no need to take a gamble and start outcrossing, especially since it's already hard enough keeping the common health problems out of the dogs and maintaining sound working structure (without falling prey to the arbitrarily "correct" show ring structure, puh!!).  Again, I've nothing against outcrossing in certain situations, but typically people who are trying to establish better lines this way are doing it for their own working dogs (and probably culling a lot of them), not selling them as pets (as it sounds like the OP was referring to).  Sure you can be a responsible breeder and outcross, but you're still responsible for whatever comes of that, keeping those dogs or keeping close tabs on them and making the necessary changes to your breeding program according to the results.  I think it's a fine way to develop better working dogs and new dogs that serve a different needed purpose, but not for cute pet designer dogs.

I think it's a fine way to develop better working dogs and new dogs that serve a different needed purpose, but not for cute pet designer dogs.

I gotcha.   I'm just having a little party over here on the topic in general.  Ignoring the OP almost entirely.  Which probably isn't a very nice thing to do to the original poster... lol

but typically people who are trying to establish better lines this way are doing it for their own working dogs (and probably culling a lot of them), not selling them as pets (as it sounds like the OP was referring to).  Sure you can be a responsible breeder and outcross, but you're still responsible for whatever comes of that, keeping those dogs or keeping close tabs on them and making the necessary changes to your breeding program according to the results.  I think it's a fine way to develop better working dogs and new dogs that serve a different needed purpose, but not for cute pet designer dogs.

well i cant help but agree there. there is absolutely no excuse for breeding designer COMPANION dogs... in my opinion. and most of you already know what i think about working breeds being sold as lap dogs..... no .. let me rephrase that. its ok to have one as a pet as long as you understand the breed. but they should not be bred simply FOR pet purposes. that's where the back yard breeders make their money.
any farmer/hunter/shepherd worth his salt and a brain in his head will not risk his livelihood on a dog from some hobby breeder.
he might take one on as a project... but why would he put his trust in such a questionable source?
and yes many dogmen that outcross for hunting purposes will cull part of the litter. accidental litters.. now thats different. to keep the bitch from stressing over loosing the whole litter they will keep one or two pups. then those find new homes.

personally i couldnt be a professional working dog breeder. if i ever took up dog breeding it would be strict and for my own purposes. and i would have to be absolutely positively sure that those pups had homes BEFORE they were ever born. and even then.... i would have to question the people getting these pups. for what purposes? breeding and selling? hell no. working, ok fine. your dog doesnt need to be intact to be a good working dog.

the problem with my favourite breed is large litters.... usually 12 or more puppies in each litter... that's 12 or more homes. and i dont even know TWO people that want a working bulldog right now. so what would my purpose be?
anyone seeking a companion dog should probably look in to adopting first. i understand that some dogs up for adoption cant go to homes with kids or other dogs - usually that is what the foster/rescue says.... i was once turned down FLAT because i had kids and bulldogs [8|] and i wasnt even asking about a specific dog.... any

my other gripe is the prices some rescues charge for older "secondhand" dogs.
250 or 350??? most people see that price and say "heck... i can get a PUPPY with PAPERS for that price! and then i can make it what i want!" some rescues are driving away potentially great homes because of the prices they charge.

talenak

I just want to know why they don't think this breed is actually an insult to the dogs that were crossed to make it? Does that make sense? 

If you cross two different breeds, you get mutts.  You do not create a new breed because these mutts will not breed "true".  If you mate a labradoodle and a labradoodle, some of the pups will look like labs, some will look like poodles, and some will look like combinations.  It is possible that none will look like the parents.
 
I object to the breeding of designer dogs because the buyers frequently don't get what they think they are getting:
(1)  Designer dogs are mutts not a new "breed".
(2)  Designer dogs do not always get the "best" features of each breed.
(3)  Designer dogs don't always have less health problems than purebreds.  They may have less recessive health problems.
 
I have never heard of a designer dog breeder who
(1)  tracks the health of the pups  or
(2)  assumes responsibility for the pup for it's entire life.
 
In addition, designer dogs in shelters are often just considered mutts with workers guessing as to the breeds of the parents.

my other gripe is the prices some rescues charge for older "secondhand" dogs.
250 or 350??? most people see that price and say "heck... i can get a PUPPY with PAPERS for that price! and then i can make it what i want!" some rescues are driving away potentially great homes because of the prices they charge.

This is really off-topic, but if anyone ever finds a rescue dog but thinks the price is too high, still contact the rescue.  The GSD rescue here advertises a price of $200, but that's just an average based on the various shelters they list for and also to turn off people who just want "free" dogs for not-so-worthy purposes.  But, shhhhhh, you CAN get them cheaper or free.  Kenya (purebred West German working lines, OFA hips, elbows, and heart, eyes CERF, obedience and agility trained) came to be absolutely free.  When I asked about method of payment of the $200, they were like "huh?...oh, that's just what we say as a ballpark figure but it all depends on where the dog is from and whether the foster needs to recoup medical costs."  w00t!

i would have to question the people getting these pups. for what purposes? breeding and selling? hell no. working, ok fine. your dog doesnt need to be intact to be a good working dog.

Exactly.  And this is why I also expect to be questioned at length by any breeder I consider buying from.  A breeder letting me pick my own puppy and not inquiring about my purpose is pretty shady, IMO.

hi
 i am the sister with the american cocker spaniel she is 3 yrs old very healthy as well as good family background she has a very good temperment as does the jrt all the puppies have exceptionally good homes planned before the pups were born i am in touch with all new owners and also have a site for them to visit which includes a forum for any questions they might have regarding anything at all to do with these pups all owners are aware they are to let me know if for any reason they cannot keep their dog and i am very willing to take him/her back they were brought up very well wormed as and when needed and left with 1st vaccination and full vet check also fed on high quality food etc i was advised by my vet that jrt cross acs is 1 of the best mixes health wise all pups had very good temprements like the parents and left very freindly happy confident loving pups IF my bitch is bred again it wont be untill next year as i do know to wait a FULL year before hand she will have a full medical 1st and they will also have new homes planned 1st or the mating will not go ahead she will then be spayed

ORIGINAL: janet_rose
If you cross two different breeds, you get mutts.  You do not create a new breed because these mutts will not breed "true". 

If that's the case, then there's probably not a pure breed on the planet who is not a mutt.  Since all our established breeds are the result of crossbreeding then inbreeding.  There wasn't one day a big bang and German Shepards, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Pitt Bulls, they had to be developed by crossing other of different breeds.

Of course I'm not saying if I breed my mutt with a dog, this new litter of puppies is a new breed.  But anyone with the knowledge and commitement could take dogs and start a breeding program to eventually create a new "pedigree" that isn't anything you could buy right now.

Is it still a mutt because it started out by cross breeding say  a Great Dane and a Doberman?

Talenak, I consider the offspring of outcrossed dog's a "variety" until they are breeding a new breed and have a defined standard and breed club.  I think Alaskan Huskies are still in the "variety" catagory and not a breed b/c their "variety" exists for variety, hehe, thus there may never be a standard.

But anyone with the knowledge and commitement could take dogs and start a breeding program to eventually create a new "pedigree" that isn't anything you could buy right now.

Agreed, but I don't think that this is the OP's goal.  I think that any responsible breeding starts with a goal, an ideal, not a dog or two that someone thinks might be good for breeding.  The only people who have any business breeding are people that know what they want and actually have the knowledge of genetics to make good guesses on whether or not it will be possible and know how to select for the traits they are looking to bring out.  If two different breeds are what is needed to meet the goal, OK, but I'm not so sure that's what we have here...

ORIGINAL: talenak



Is it still a mutt because it started out by cross breeding say  a Great Dane and a Doberman?

i think they do that already... calling it a King Doberman....
and yeah the english bulldog has no place in the show ring since its got pug outcrossing and heaven only knows what else.....
irish wolfhound also has a recent mixture in order to um.. "save" them from extinction.... fat lot of good it did them.
and please, in the future dont be offended when i say a breed has been dumbed down. i'm not insulting ther intelligence but the fact that these dogs once were healthy fully functional working dogs and now they are not. they're pets.
an english bulldog could no more intimidate a bull then it could sprout wings and fly. and i highly doubt an Irish wolfhound of today's stock could keep up with even the oldest and laziest of wild wolves. doesnt mean their stupid....