Where Working Dog = Show Dog

read the rest of what i wrote.... UNDER that i made sure to state that you dont have to join a club or the military just to have a job for your dog... in your dog's mind.. he IS working. if you ask it of him.. he's working. its the willingness to do as he's told that makes him a working dog. sure any dog can do that... because they're dogs. their position in life has always been to serve people.. thats why they're dogs and not wolves.  

DumDog

read the rest of what i wrote....

I read the rest of what you wrote.  I still maintain there are very few working dogs (by a definition I made early in the post) in this country.  To say for example that a dog that protects the house by barking when someone is knocking at the door is not a working dog.  My dogs have the instinct and ability to herd sheep and probably could do an ok job if i had sheep and I fully trained them.  But they are not working dogs and even if they have a bunch of agility titles that still doesn't make them working dogs.  They would only be working dogs if they were out there every day working the flock.  They are companions and that to me is not a job.

 Semantics then. So it doesnt matter. I'm just glad to know that my breed of choice hasnt been ruined beyond repair by some tyrannical breed club standard.

American bulldog is it? We had a very severe bite by an american bulldog to the face of a young woman in my hospital. She will require at least 3 surgerys and be scarred for life. While I'm sure you feel your dogs are wonderful, they are a breed I would never trust near my family. I like big dogs, but I will never again buy a dog that was at one time bred for protection. They are too unstable for my tastes. I have a cousin who was severely bitten by his own family's German Shepherd. The GSD is a great dog, but I will never get one because they can be biters. Give me my big old IW with no working ability anytime. They might step on your feet, but even as puppies they are very careful with their teeth.

louiereck

American bulldog is it? We had a very severe bite by an american bulldog to the face of a young woman in my hospital. She will require at least 3 surgerys and be scarred for life. While I'm sure you feel your dogs are wonderful, they are a breed I would never trust near my family. I like big dogs, but I will never again buy a dog that was at one time bred for protection. They are too unstable for my tastes. I have a cousin who was severely bitten by his own family's German Shepherd. The GSD is a great dog, but I will never get one because they can be biters. Give me my big old IW with no working ability anytime. They might step on your feet, but even as puppies they are very careful with their teeth.

You remember that woman who had the face transplant in France (the one where literally half her face was ripped off)?  That was a lab.  An unstable temperament is an unstable temperament, period.  The instances of labs biting has risen, and according to one lab rescue worker about 10% of the dogs that some into their program are dog aggressive.  I have been told about labs going after other dogs at shows, etc.  The issue of temperament in the breed was even brought up in a Gun Dog article.

Were labs bred as "protection dogs?"  Heck no.  They were not even bred to kill anything.  However, with poor breeding choices/random breeding we now have some labs with some temperament issues.  This can happen in ANY breed with poor stewardship by its fanciers, it has nothing to do with being a big mean "protection" *gasp* breed.     

louiereck

The GSD is a great dog, but I will never get one because they can be biters. Give me my big old IW with no working ability anytime. They might step on your feet, but even as puppies they are very careful with their teeth.

Wow, this has got to be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read here, considering it's coming from someone who breeds dogs.  What dog CANT be a biter?  lol.  Anyway, GSDs are not bred for "protection", not by any reputable breeder. 

wow you ARE naive arent you. breeding dogs with such horrible health problems you are already setting yourself and others up for failure because the dogs that bite most are usually the ones that are in pain. if a child falls on top of a wolfhound with an aching hip then he's most likely going to bite. and with a mouth as large as that... good bye child.

Say what you will but please educate yourself. Wolfhounds are also being banned as dangerous. But i am certain that is the fault of "bad breeders" .... but if you ask me, any sensible person that reviews the list of health problems common to IWHs will consider ALL the breeders bad for perpetuating it.

Bulldogs and any other breed dont bite for no reason. its lack of care on the owners part. lack of training. bad health. or carelessness upon someone who is clueless about stepping on to property where ANY dog lives.

Do you know the stats on how many children have DIED from bites by so called harmless non-prey driven breeds?
 

I have never seen an Irish wolfhound on a banned list. Some places restrict any dog over a certain size. Delude yourself all you want, some breeds are much more prone to bite than others. GSD are bred for protection and Schzhound. They also use their teeth when herding. Great dogs but they will bite.

banned in Iowa i know.. and a pack of wolfhounds mauled an old woman in Australia. 14 of them and one old lady... which they knew. delude yourself all you want. ALL dogs have a potential to bite. properly trained working dogs are supposed to know WHEN and WHAT to bite . if you have a working dog that doesnt know what to do with himself then you're begging for trouble. pure and simple as that.

Breeders need to leave the working breeds alone. if someone wants a pet, then go adopt one or get a stuffed animal. its these crazy ideals of turning working dogs into couch cushions that have them thrown into nasty kennels at the shelter. if IWHs were such good pets then why are there so many in rescues already? Unless you have a new strain of IWH that are designed to never grow teeth then you're still thinking in a very naive way.

I am fully aware of my bulldogs potential to bite. They're guard dogs. they are also vermin killers. i'm a mother of two and my husband works long hours. we live out in the middle of nowhere with a prison full of crazies fairly close by. of COURSE i want a big bad guard dog. If i lived in an apartment i would .. well... i would still have an ABD.. the only thing that would stop me from owning one is if i couldnt give them everything they needed to be happy balanced dogs. which is the reason why i dont own IWHs... i already know i could never afford their vet bills.

louiereck

 GSD are bred for protection and Schzhound. They also use their teeth when herding. Great dogs but they will bite.

GSDs are not bred for protection, at least not by any reputable, working lines breeder I've encountered.  They are bred for herding and working drive.  Schutzhund is NOT protection it is a sport, and again, people don't really breed just for that.  Some GSDs are trained for PP and estate stuff, but those people typically use Malinois and Dutch Shepherds b/c they tend to be more intense, more reactive, and give it all in their bite.  Appropriately trained PP dogs will cost tens of thousands of dollars.  I've seen them $8000-$65000.  You will not find such an expensive dog randomly biting people, as you seem to be presuming.  Same deal with Czech line GSDs used for border patrol.  You don't find those dogs in companion homes where stupid people can deny them training and socialization, thank goodness.  I've only ever seen one Czech dog in my life (someone thought it would be fun to enter the dog in a UKC show).  Hostility and nervousness (we all know plenty of bites occur out of fear, not outright aggression) are against the standard of the German Shepherd.  Anyway, wolfhounds were dogs originally bred to guard and protect. 

And how is a GSD using teeth when herding any different than a hound hunting its prey?  Some venues do NOT want gripping in herding (HGH - yes; AKC and CKC - no!), so in reality, a wolfhound doing its job hunting sounds like it involves quite a bit more biting than a GSD herding!

I'm seriously having to stifle my laughter.  ALL dogs can bite!

I'm not really sure what your point is here.  I don't know anything about wolfhounds so I have no reason to say negative things about them.  If you don't know much about GSDs, why slam them with baseless accusations?
 

i know plenty about the wolfhounds to say that i know at least one breeder now that is not doing their job properly according to the Irish Wolfhound Club of America's ethics.... http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/ethics.htm

6. Always behave in a manner that will be conducive to the advancement of our breed and our Club.

 8. In all questions of ethics not covered by the Standard of Conduct, act in the best interest of the breed and treat others as they would wish to be treated.

a. Never breed for the pet market but only to preserve the breed and improve on one's breeding program.

I talked recently to some lurcher owners from the UK. they're sad to see the downfall of this breed too. a couple of them think they are still good for boar hunting, and stags... but the majority think they are far too slow to get the job done because of what show breeders have done to them.

I'm not sure that the man who put forth his time, money, and effort to save this breed from extinction was intending for them to end up as house pets that dont live much longer than the common hamster.

Poodles are my favorite breed, and I love them to bits, but a poorly bred and poorly trained poodle is as dangerous as any other dog.  I AGREE---ALL DOGS CAN BITE. 

I have often admired the German Shorthair Pointers at shows--beautiful dogs.  I have never met an agressive one, either.  Their hunt drive is high, and that makes them great show dogs.  I had one in my puppy class with Chaz, my Standard Poodle.  Her name was Serenipidy, "Seri" was a beautiful Black and White German shorthair with a great attitude and was to be shown in breed. 

I have met good and poor examples of most breeds.  I have seen agressive Golden Retrievers, and friendly Rotweilers.  I have seen agressive Labs and friendly Pit Bulls.  I have seen agressive, friendly and shy members of the German Shepherds.  Most of the agression I have seen is from those owners being clueless of their dogs' behavior, and the behavior was not corrected, and not trained out.  Yes, there are naturally agressive dogs out there, but IMO, this results from not breeding for temperment.  I think that selecting for tempermant and health is as important as selecting for looks.

Karen

brookcove

Excellence in the show world means not just being able to win in breed, but also group, and show.  The problem we have as working breeders (and supporters of them), is that selection pressure becomes against characteristics that make practical working dogs.  The dogs that excel above breed fit the group and BIS judges' notions of what makes a good show dog.

Becca, very interesting post (and a great subject in general, Kim!).  I have to disagree with this part, though... you'd think that a dog winning BIS/Groups would be a better representation of the breed.  But, at that level you have so much more coming into play that I find a dog that consistently wins Breed (under a variety of judges) is a much better rep.  I've read a book (trying to remember which one) that stated this and I agreed with it.  A dog is most accurately categorized as the BEST (conformationally) when judged side by side with it's equals (such as Nationals, or specialties.. anything with large entries) versus a different breed.

1. At group level you have much more Politics than you would have breed level, generally speaking of course.  Judges are more prone to go with the dog they like at Breed level than stick their neck out and go with an unpopular decision in Group and Show.

2.  Dog on the day.  A dog may not be as SHOWY as the Flat Coat or the Pug.... thereby has less contention when getting into the groups, even if it's a superior dog structurally. "They just asked for it..." that show attitude makes a world of difference.

3. You are regarding the same breed of dog so the playing field is level, who knows, maybe the judge prefers a coated breed?  Maybe the Judge likes a more substantial dog, kinda tough for a saluki, no??  What is your competition?... a poor representative of an Irish Setter and the only Springer to show up? How is that accurate?

 Anyway, I'm reading through this and it's very interesting!! The Twist story in particular.

And FWIW, I agree with needing to excel and needing titles at both ends of their name.  Not everyone is going to agree and you'll have extremes at both sides (show and working) but there are many people in the middle breeding for versatile excellence.  The hard part is putting the right dog in the right home to make a super star. ... I think many times people have rock stars that rock their sofas and never have a chance to excel.  But, when the stars align, boy is it special!

 I have NO idea how I found this thread... didn't even notice the dates till after I finished reading the entire thread (right now) GOOD GRIEF and sorry! LOL