Where Working Dog = Show Dog

    • Gold Top Dog

    Where Working Dog = Show Dog

    This is more just a historical thing, and I made it originally for somewhere else, but because it is a part of my philosophy on dog breeding, I thought others might enjoy seeing it so figured I'd post it here. From here on out everything is a copy/paste:

    Okay, there seems to be a bit of a contraversy as to what constitutes "real" versions of a breed. I wanted to make this post, to share with you, that the situation is not plain ole black and white. There is a heck of a lot of grey in there as well. It's not just a matter of "show dogs" and "working dogs". Believe it or not, there are some people in this world that breed dogs that do both!

    There seems to be a misconception in some dog avenues, that a "show dog" is just some pretty-fied animal that is all froo-froo. That they are like little models that just trot around a ring and look nice. A lot even believe there is very little training involved. This is completely untrue.

    Let's have a look at this situation. All images used in this post belong to my family and I, so I have the rights to share them. The dogs in these photos either are, or at one time were owned or bred by us. So I can speak from experience.

    This is Evalill Ykelenstam's Oskar. He has 2 more points to go before he has his conformation Championship:

     Yes, he's a show dog. The Miniature Schnauzer, on the whole, is not a working dog any longer, but rather a companion dog. You would have to look far and wide to find Mini Schnauzers that live as natural ratters anymore. Does that make him froo-froo? Let's see what happens when he's not at the shows:

     

     

    As you can see, while Oskar may not be strictly a working dog, it has not made him any less of a working animal. He is still a hunter by nature (and upbringing), no amount of conformation showing will take that out of him.

    Let's have a look at some other Mini's that I've shared my life with:

     

     All doing very much what comes naturally to them, despite the fact that they are no longer a working animal! Just because some dogs enter a show ring, does not automatically make them unfit for any other tasks, including the ones they were bred for.

    Let's look at some other tasks they can do:

    While we don't technically breed "working dogs", and we dont' even have access to Earthdog Trials (although that's not even realistic for Mini's anyhow because they weren't naturally go-to-ground terriers, heck they aren't even a true terrier since they were considered working dogs and bred down from working dogs....not all clubs list them as terriers). But our dogs still most certainly retain their ability to do as they once did, and they show that in every day that we experience with them. But they are also adaptable, and do well in conformation as a sport, and do well as family companions.

    Let's move on.

    At one time, some know that we raised Labrador Retrievers. This was many years ago, but the memories are still quite clear. We bred some very, very successful show dogs, whos lineage still goes on directly in the show dogs of today. Let's take a look at some of the dogs we showed:


    As you can tell by the pictures, they were some top show dogs. Best Puppy in Show, Group Placements, many great awards. Let's look at what else these very same dogs did:

    Some articles:

    A letter my dear mother sent to the editor of a local paper, in 1991.



    These dogs were show dogs, they were. And very successful ones. But they were also very successful hunting dogs. They were also successful carting dogs, and we even had our dogs go to Guide Dogs and other special needs organizations. All this, in one package. Impossible, you say? A "true" Lab would never be seen in both venues. But that's not exactly true.

    Despite common misconceptions, there are breeders in this world that are striving for a versatile animal. Breeders who see the strengths in both conformation as a sport, as well as retaining a dog's natural working ability. Not all show dogs are froo-froo dogs, and it's a myth to think that all show breeders breed only for looks. Of course some do, but then again there are working breeders that care very little for a lot of important things too (some working dogs make horrible pets, and need to live outdoors because of their dispositions and energy levels, which doesn't fit in for most of pet owners in today's society), and the same diseases apply equally in working dog lines.

    I am just one person in this world, but rather than just show dogs, or just working dogs, personally I put my faith in the dog that can do both. The versatile working dog, that can adapt to all venues of competition, both conformation and working. There are many breeders that excel in the conformation ring, while keeping their dogs' dispositions very near and dear to their heart, and the next day take their dogs to the working venue to excel there as well. There is room in this world for both types of sports, and I think that both types of sports have a very important place in the world of dogs.

    I hope you enjoyed reading this, and viewing the images. I spent a long time looking through...oh....at least 2000 photos finding these pics to share. :-) Labs were a huge part of our life, almost 15 years of life (starting before I was born), therefore there was a lot of history to dig through. And I just picked some of it. :-)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Good post! 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Outstanding! Can we sticky this? 

    • Gold Top Dog

     i wont say that the majority of show dogs CANT work, i just say that the working ability seems to be least of the breeder/handler's worries.. the function comes second or last or what ever..

    here's a couple of quotes from friends in a working dog forum i'm a member of

    The first one from a man in Australia who has a few years of experience with both working and show dogs -

    **

    many Breeds have been dumbed down or nearly ruined due to being bred soley for the Showring and never worked or tested.Breeders carry on about Breed Standards but a breed Standard only goes some of the way.A breed Standard is basically only concerned with Appearance.A Breed Standard does not test or show has this Dog got a healthy level of Prey Drive and decent nerves.

    I have Blue Heelers,Stumpy Tailed Cattledogs,Kelpies,some Crossbred Dogs and an American Bulldog.The Bulldog is a Scott x Johnson and works.Would not be any good to me if he did not work.

    I have had discussions with breeders and some not all are missing the bigger picture.Many of course are in denial and stick the head in the sand and pretend all is well.One aspect probably not discussed openly by Breeders is the number of founding Dogs in some Breeds.Doing one"s research and checking Official records shows some breeds of Dogs all go back to a very small number of Dogs.For example one Breed of Dog has 60 Dogs that founded the Breed.So every single Dog of that breed goes back to one of those 60 Dogs.The Breed I am talking about was founded sometime back and time plus a small Genetic Pool sees a Deterioration in the Health of the Breed.

    We have some sad Cases in Australia.We now have a Line of Kelpie that is useless!!!!What happened?Well the Kelpie is a well known Australian Dog for working Sheep and Cattle.Some of the showie mob saw them and thought,gee they are nice looking Dogs we must get one and Breed.These were People who lived in Town,had no Stock and no understanding of the Breeds Purpose.So these Mugs start Breeding soley for looks.Add a bit of time and what have you got?A Line of Works with little or no working ability left.These Dogs are now called Bench Kelpies and sitting on a Bench is about all they are good for!!!!Luckily for us there are still plenty of the true working Kelpie left.Thats just one example though of the harm the Showring mugs can do to a Breed. Tony

     **

    from another man from the same forum but this time from the UK:

    The following sad tale illustrates just how much a fashion or fad can help to destroy a working dog...........

    I was talking to a friend the other day and he told me that his brother (who he thinks is off his trolley incidently) had just bought in (after much research and thought) 3 Nuttal type terriers: 3 bitches: dam and 2 daughters by different sires. He had no intention of working them but simply wanted to show and breed them as his 'research' had shown that they were a much sought after 'breed' and were selling for a lot of money!!

    Needless to say he now has 3 unworked working bred terriers who have to live in 3 separate cages in his house (he doesn't believe in kenneling dogs) as he can't let them loose in the garden together or they start fighting with eachother being bored out of their feisty little minds. Oh hes, and they are never let off the lead and are walked in the park on lead: he lives in London!

    Just another example of the stupidity of humans and its animals that are paying the price as usual. Let's just suppose he carries on: for a start he's going to be selling dogs to idiots in London who haven't a clue what a working terrier is all about, and just suppose he's still doing it years down the line then you'd expect the more docile less work orientated dog to be bred from and hey presto! we then have a black terrier with zero work instinct cos the pet market has demanded they are little robot pets and not real terriers.

     

    **

    i only wonder why someone would want to buy a working type dog from a breeder just so they can have a yard dog, house dog, lap dog, etc.. maybe a dog to jog around the block with... adopting a breed from a rescue yes.. but BUYING from a breeder? why? i dont get that. Of course people will do what they want just because they can.... they simply like the look and personality an Afghan Hound.... and thats ok.. but if you like the looks AND personality then why would you want to keep a dog like that in the backyard and on a leash? why not sign up for lure coursing and get the full exposure of what that breed is REALLY like?

    Dog shows are interesting but the point of the dog show seems to have been lost among the hairspray and blow dryers... i guess i'm a little more harsh than most.. i dont care if the dog LOOKS like it can work.. i want to see some proof in THAT dog, not in grandparents or in paperwork that says what some distant relative accomplished. ribbons dont really mean much to me. i also have to wonder about the people who pay handlers to show for them.. why cant they do it?

    well its obvious i have a lot to say on the matter... i've said it all before and its obvious that i'm one of many with these opinions.... as long as dog's stay versatile and willing then they can do any job you ask them to do, and i guess thats really all that matters.. it just breaks my heart to see certain breeds being destroyed for fashion. for example.. compare a working IRISH Irish Setter to the American Show Bred Irish Setter (or Bench Setter?) they look night and day... sign them up in an AKC show and see which one wins the ribbon... take them both out to the field for hunting and see which lasts the longest. they are like night and day so i'm told....
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    DumDog
     i wont say that the majority of show dogs CANT work, i just say that the working ability seems to be least of the breeder/handler's worries..

    But my point is that that's not necessarily true! There are breeders who truly believe in both being equal parts of a dog - working ability and conformation.And there are breeders out there every day proving it.

    DumDog
    only wonder why someone would want to buy a working type dog from a breeder just so they can have a yard dog, house dog, lap dog, etc..

    Because not all of those working-dog pups in a litter are going to grow up to be working dogs? Where are the rest of the pups going to go, that either don't make the cut as a working dog, or where there aren't enough homes lined up that are looking for a working dog? Especially in today's society when the working dog is in the minority, those dogs that don't end up in working homes have to go "somewhere".

    I didn't say there weren't downfalls to dog shows. Believe me, I do think there are, and I know there are (heck, we show a very grooming-intensive breed, I know all about the "extras"!). But I'm a person who also sees just as many problems, albeit different ones perhaps, in strictly working dog circles. Neither avenue is free from politics, or from silly aspects, or from some more serious things such as temperaments.

    This was not intended to debate why one is better than the other, or why one is inferior to another. Quite the contrary. It is meant to show that dogs CAN and DO excel in both!

    DumDog
    they are like night and day so i'm told....

    And then you get Irish Setter breeders like the following, that apparently are doing both!
    http://www.carannagh.ca/hunting.htm
    http://www.beaubriaririshsetters.com/
    http://setterwoods.netfirms.com/ourdogs.htm
    http://www.mclaurensetters.com/irish.html (They have Ch's with titles up to MH)
    http://www.brytestar.com/tempe.html

    That's just a couple from a few minutes' looking.

    The point is...yes, there are some breeders out there who only care about show. And there are some breeders out there who only care about working ability. And there are some breeders out there who genuinely care about both. And those are the people I'm trying to bring more attention to, that there ARE "show people" who put the working ability of a dog into their top goals of breeding as well.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well, my first belgian is a tervuren.  The club motto is "A well balanced dog has a CH on one end and a UDT on the other"  In fact, many tervs have titles as both ends.  We also have a number of DCs in both Tervs and Malinois.  We even have CH and FR and/or ScH dogs in both varieties.  This holds true for the black dogs as well.  In the belgian world it is the norm not the exception.

    • Gold Top Dog

    The problem is not in "doing" both, but in excelling in both.  By excelling I mean literally aiming for the top.  This is the only way to advance working ability in a breed, just as competition in conformation is the only way to maintain and advance the appearance standard in a breed.  If I said, "Oh, my Border Collies are top notch workers and I believe they would excel if I had the time to show them, therefore they should be accepted as excellent representatives of the breed standard as well" - what would you say to that?

    Excellence in the show world means not just being able to win in breed, but also group, and show.  The problem we have as working breeders (and supporters of them), is that selection pressure becomes against characteristics that make practical working dogs.  The dogs that excel above breed fit the group and BIS judges' notions of what makes a good show dog.

    Hunting dogs, terriers, tend to have a little more leeway, especially if they are not coated breeds.  What makes a terrific herding dog - sensitivity, reactivity, a reserved nature, a predatory look - these things don't actually "show" well.  And so you get the wide contrast between these two dogs, both purebred from the same breed:

    A dog bred in Australia where the standard has actually been written to exclude about half of the working breed, to emphasize the "pretty" dogs.  These dogs now make up the majority of the top winning North American BCs as well - when the breed was forced into the AKC ten years ago, the standard which favored these dogs was adopted and breeders started importing this stock immediately.

    And a dog owned by a good friend, who is a top notch worker and very likely has made a significant contribution to the future of the breed, through a mating to the current cattledog champion (done before he earned his crown, and the pups are showing great promise already).

    I know I keep hammering on this point, but I just can't get past the fact that from a show breeder's point of view, my friend's dog would be a cull.  There's not a single redeeming quality about her.  Ticking is dominant.  So are upright ears.  So is white factoring.  So is smooth coat.  All are undesireable to a show dog.

    Twist was bred to a beautiful, classic looking stud and here was the result:

    It would take generations to fix what Twist would screw up in a show program, and what would you be breeding for then?  Excellence in working ability?  No, you'd have to look for excellence in working ability among dogs that suit the line, that also would "correct" the "faults" of ticking, upright ears, legginess, slick coats, etc, etc.  And do it over and over and over.

    It's like starting with the world's greatest basketball team and saying, "Ok, now we are only going to draft red-headed people."  How long will we remain the world's greatest basketball team?

    If excellence in working ability is not the breed's goal, then that's fine.  But it's even written in the Border Collie standard (ha-ha) "world's premier herding dog."   So you'd think breeders interested in maintaining that would not be so focused on miniscule variations in topline, head shape, ear set, and markings.  And more interested in working achievements greater than being able to move the farm flock around and get instinct test certficates.

    Well, you knew where I'd come down on this, lol.  It's not that I think every breed should be totally performance focused.  I'd just like to see the kennel clubs acknowledge the importance of performance in some of these breeds, rather than representing the breed ring as the be-all end-all. 

    Edited to replace a word referring to ears, that was censored, lol. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well my show dogs are good hunting dogs and I have the rabbits to prove it.  Er, or I would if I'd kept the carcasses.  Seriously though, I don't understand why everyone doesn't want to everything they can with their dogs.  With my boyz I've done conformation, coursing, agility, rally, therapy and I've even had them tested for herding.  But when I got them I was just thinking about conformation and therapy work.  Silly me!  In fact one of the things about the basenji breed that I like most is that there are a lot of DC's out there.  (That and all the work many dedicated breeders have done with the African stock project.)

    • Gold Top Dog

    agilebasenji
    With my boyz I've done conformation, coursing, agility, rally, therapy and I've even had them tested for herding.

    I really don't classify any of the games we play with our dogs as working.  I don't even see herding trials or gun trials real work.  I know someone with a brit that has a Ch, Mach and field titles but you know what, the dog has never been on a real hunt in her life.  The owner claims it is a working dog but it isn't actively hunting I don't believe it is a hunting dog.  Since most of the breeds work related to farm work of some sort unless you have a active working farm and the dog is out there every day doing what they were bred to do I really don't see the working aspect as important in any dog.  Now there are aspects of a dogs working heritage and instinct that makes them fantastic for todays games that we play with out dogs but just because a dog can pass a herding test or trial doesn't make them a working herding dog. 

    While breeders need to be aware and not allow all the instinct be be bred out of a dog, having a dog in a household situation that is a true working dog could drive owners nuts.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     ^^ Agreed.  I've got a working-bred GSD, but I don't "work" her.  Yes, we do rally, obedience, and agility, but to me real work for a German Shepherd = police or border patrol duty 40 hours a week or actually herding sheep, out in the fields, for several hours a day (out with the shepherd from sun up to sun down).  I do not consider agility or even high levels of competitive obedience, ringsport, and SchH to be real work.  Those to me are advanced levels of sport and recreation.  My uncle is really the only person I know that I would say has "working" dogs.  He always has a field-bred lab and as a DNR officer, his dog traveled with him on foot all day, every day and on weekends the dog hunted, hunted, hunted.  His dogs have no titles and are never in any canine club sanction field trials, but they work and hunt, work and hunt.  I think of a dog's "job" as something that humans could never get done on their own, not a fun game or sport we make up to fulfill the physical needs of the dog.  I'm not saying agility, rally, and other trials are all that easy, just that I don't see them as work and I don't think you can compare dogs that excel in those activities to dogs that truly do work all day.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I really don't classify any of the games we play with our dogs as working.  I don't even see herding trials or gun trials real work.  I know someone with a brit that has a Ch, Mach and field titles but you know what, the dog has never been on a real hunt in her life.  The owner claims it is a working dog but it isn't actively hunting I don't believe it is a hunting dog. 

    Hmm, something to think about.   I might be inclined to agree, but I do think these tests can be an indication of instinct/workability.  But I'm not really sure seasonal hunting is any more out put of effort than my dogs catching the occasional rabbit and the other sports we do.  But perhaps I'm mistaken?  How often do people go hunt duck/phesant/turkies/etc?  

    Working farmdogs, working military/police dogs, working service dogs, beagle brigade, etc are definately a whole different level of "work". 

    I guess, then, my question is what is the definition of "work" in this context.  Does it only relate to what the dog was bred to do?  And is that dependant on the dog's heritage?   And would there be a difference between "work" and "sport" to the dog?

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    agilebasenji

    I really don't classify any of the games we play with our dogs as working.  I don't even see herding trials or gun trials real work.  I know someone with a brit that has a Ch, Mach and field titles but you know what, the dog has never been on a real hunt in her life.  The owner claims it is a working dog but it isn't actively hunting I don't believe it is a hunting dog. 

    Hmm, something to think about.   I might be inclined to agree, but I do think these tests can be an indication of instinct/workability.  But I'm not really sure seasonal hunting is any more out put of effort than my dogs catching the occasional rabbit and the other sports we do.  But perhaps I'm mistaken?  How often do people go hunt duck/phesant/turkies/etc?  

    Working farmdogs, working military/police dogs, working service dogs, beagle brigade, etc are definately a whole different level of "work". 

    I guess, then, my question is what is the definition of "work" in this context.  Does it only relate to what the dog was bred to do?  And is that dependant on the dog's heritage?   And would there be a difference between "work" and "sport" to the dog?

     

     

    In the case of my uncle, he hunts constantly b/c he is often a guide and his local bird hunting club pays him to go out with his decoys and his dog. If he's not hunting for or with someone, he's doing it for himself.  I'm not particularly fond of his dog (or the way he treats her and trains her) for many reasons, but I'm the FIRST to admit that when it comes to energy, she can run circles around Kenya.  Kenya has an on/off switch and will sometimes decide for herself when she is done.  Della on the other hand will swim so hard that we literally have to pull her in.  She has NO common sense.  Her instinct to swim and retrieve overrides all other instincts, including not drowning/dying.  She's the type of dog where if we send her in after a duck and there's not a duck there, she WILL swim the entire lake, miles and miles, and she will collapse before she decides for herself that she is done looking for a duck.

     

    My definition of work is the combination of skill, drive, instinct, stamina, AND time.  Like with people, I think "work" for animals is also a function of time to an extent.

    • Gold Top Dog

    agilebasenji
    is what is the definition of "work" in this context.

    My definition of working is that the person is dependent upon the dog to assist their paid livelyhood or volunteer livelyhood such as SAR. 

    I look at this as working herding, flock protection, general farm protection, SAR, police, protective svcs, various types of sniffing dogs, service animals, various real life hunting situations, etc.

    Btw, the serious hunter is out there every weekend during the various seasons and is training the dog in between.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Brook pretty much sums up my opinion - as always - the actual working dogs she showed us would be laughed out of the show ring.. while i'm sure at the same time the show dog would be laughed out of the pasture...

    i still maintain my opinion that the show dog circuit is only a way to maintain history and lineage as well as a beauty pageant. i dont care if i'm hunting rabbits with a Dalmatian coloured beagle or herding sheep with a white GSD... the only thing that would concern me is that the job is getting done.

    again i dont understand buying a pet quality working dog. if the breeders of yore had done their job and actually CULLED the less desirable dogs instead of giving them away or selling them as "pet quality" then the bloody BYBs wouldnt have a product to market. Culling might sound cruel and unfair but when you've seen the end result of someone's pity party or free puppy parade you start to realize that the kindest thing WOULD be to cull the ones that dont match up to the standard.

    Dont get me wrong though. i love hearing about people in the show dog circuit that do more than just show their dogs. they have my utmost respect..

    i also want to add to the list of Irish Setter links.. something i found earlier on my own search - http://www.geocities.com/rosellesmyth/ - now THAT is impressive.

    But again i dont believe in breeding puppies for the public's demand for pet quality dogs.... 

    According to another friend in the UK a setter takes a special handler to get the best out of the dog as they are a sensitive in nature. but he does make sure to point out that there IS a difference in the Irish working bred Irish Setter and the bench dogs.

     
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I would suggest that in many instances( I know in my breed it is true),  the titles at both ends or working dogs who show belong to folks where dogs and dog activity make up the majority of their lives.  In a number of cases, these folks make a portion of their living with the dogs in some manner.  Many of the typical dogs with jobs and who end of with titles at both ends, belong to folks who work for a living, raise a family (or care for existing family).  There are other dog owners where their effort, time and income go to other activities than dog competition.  The dogs who work and show (to the max level) and I know a number of othem, typically come from folks who's life style has been designed around dogs or evolved into the present state.

    I disagres that titles do not demonstrate enough behavior to be considered "working".  Many dog sports (verses work such as SAR, herding, etc) demonstrate instincts and abilities that should be considered and valued in the breeds. If you dont have the barometer of performance titles, you have very little to examine on the part of instinct unless the dog is one of the lucky ones actually working in its "field of endevour".  The environment in the US is such that most dogs can't work they way their ancestors did since we no longer hunt nor raise the majority of our own food.