Where Working Dog = Show Dog

nice post!  I have to say that although there are MANY poodles who get their UD, CD, CDX, agility titles and hunt titles--yes, poodles are hunters!  It is difficult to do this while they are in full hair.  They have to be banded, and fully dried if they went into water.  The field is notorious for breaking coat.  Yes, the AKC hair on a poodle is supposed to represent the hunt clip, but I wish that the historically correct continental was more accepted by AKC judges.  Officially it is--but in practice the judges prefer the big hair.  That is what is nice about UKC--they represent the poodle as a gun dog and it does not have to have all of that hair...wish there was more UKC shows around here, though! 

While my standard is whith his handler, he learns how to behave in the ring.  I would like to do some obedience work with him when he gets home--he has a modified collar that will not mat his hair--but I cannot do the automatic sits!  Geeze, can you imagine that behavior when he goes back to his handler in the spring???

Karen

louiereck

The modern dog is used nearly exclusively as a pet. Working ability is largely unimportant.

  Is that true though? What about police and military dogs? Hunting dogs? Herding dogs? I'd say there is a good population of people who still want/need a dog with a solid working temperament. The majority dogs may be pets but that doesn't mean working ability in working breeds is "unimportant".

louiereck

What's wrong with having seperate working and show lines or no working lines at all? Most people don't want or need a true working dog.

  What's wrong with preserving a breed's proper temperament for future generations? Is it enough to preserve just the breed's physical traits with a generic temperament?

Is it enough to preserve just the breed's physical traits with a generic temperament?

An excellent point.  I would argue "no".  What makes a BC what it is?  Black and white markings?  Perfectly tipped ears? Eyes of a "soft" disposition and a certain color?  Head shape?  A certain gait?

Or is it its ability as a herding dog, that also makes it a super-athletic, super-trainable companion for thousands of committed dog lovers?

I'd propose that breeding a BC without taking herding ability into account, makes as much sense as breeding giant Chihuahuas or miniature Great Danes.  Or 24 inch, blue merle Beagles. 

louiereck

Most dog breeds no longer work. I breed Irish Wolfhounds on a small scale. Since sighthounds really aren't used for hunting anymore, I try to provide healthy, handsome, dogs that match the breed standard and will excell in a home. I want a very large rough coated dog that can run, as that is what the standard calls for, but I don't breed for or even want a strong prey drive. This makes for a difficult house dog. A house dog is what 99% of IW are today. The modern dog is used nearly exclusively as a pet. Working ability is largely unimportant. The breed standard helps keep the breed uniform, and that's a good thing as people know what they're getting. I like when labs or huskies are bred to work as these dogs still serve a purpose. The working huskies energy level makes him a lousy pet. If you had a husky with a lower energy level he would make a better pet and fewer huskies would need to be rescued. What's wrong with having seperate working and show lines or no working lines at all? Most people don't want or need a true working dog.

..wow.. there are a LOT of sight hounds that hunt for a living and supply their masters with actual food. IWHs are not among them because they cant perform anymore. they dont live long enough, they have heaps of diseases, and they're so big... they're slow! If there IS an actual hunting IWH then he is a first cross, probably with some other sight hound breed. But he is unacceptable because he is a cross breed. What breeders have done to the IWH is a sin and a shame.

 and i disagree totally with your view on breeding a separate line of working dogs as pets. THAT is what i mean when i say breeders "Dumb down working dogs".. not insulting the intelligence of the dogs.. but the BREEDERS are ruining the breed itself. Why do you want a husky for a house pet anyway? What attracts you to a husky? Huskies are runners, pullers, they're hyper, and excited.. full of spirit and life. Why then would you want to smother that just so it will sit nicely on your sofa? If you want a pretty fluffy husky-looking dog without all the "STUFF" that makes it a husky then might i recommend this little invention..

  If people would STOP getting working dogs and cramming them into crates all day and expect them to LIKE it .. then THAT would end breed rescues. Not dumbing them down so they will be pretty, fluffy, house pets. Want a house pet? Get a toy breed. they have been designed specifically for the house...

I've been following a few discussions similar to this one on a German Shepherd board.  What's interesting to me is that a few of the breeders (these are working-line breeders, some of the most respected hobby breeders in the country) insist that a companion dog really isn't lesser of a dog because in many situations temperament, stability, and biddability are MORE important in companion situations.  A reactive, drivey dog with a lot of attitude and courage can do well as a police dog, border patrol dog, military dog, etc but would not be considered a stable, balanced dog appropriate for companionship.  An example would be some threads addressing specific complaints against some Malinois - the dogs excel in SchH, ringsport, etc, but were not at all stable and attacked other dogs and people.

I don't think that there should be "pet lines" and "working lines".  I feel that the dog in general should be the standard (and an appropriate standard would take into account the WORKING structure and abilities of the dog).  Out of each litter, some will be better suited for work, others for companionship, and others for neither (cull).  Genetics are never a guarantee.  Kenya is a great example of that.  She has 3 famous working line dogs in her pedigree and I've never met a dog with such weak nerves.  The drive, energy, and instinct is there but the attitude and courage are not.  You cannot always cull for these things b/c they aren't apparent until the dog matures and begins training and titling.  That's why even the very best breeders of true sport and working dogs will still have dogs for family homes.  As long as people are breeding to the standard, doing the correct training and titling, and breeding for the appropriate physical and temperamental traits, it's a win-win situation.   

 that makes the most sense to me. the dogs not suited for working should find pet homes... they should NOT be bred to become a separate line of "Pet Quality" dogs. as you said...Genetics are random... you can claim to breed pet quality all you want, but somewhere down the line you're going to come up with a prey driven, hyper active dog thats going to drive the owners bananas because they were TOLD he was from a pet quality line....

So much for predictability! 

I have such fun with this site! I wonder if these posters realize they are in the 1% of dog owners? I'd like to see how many sight hounds in the USA hunt food for their owners? I'd guess less than one tenth of one percent. The Irish Wolfhound is a wonderful breed. They can run very well for a dog well over a hundred pounds. Yes they are relatively short lived as are all of the giant breeds. I love my big furry sweet couch potatoes. I like the breed because they make such good pets.

There is a place for the true working dog. It is just a very small part of the dog population. It's great that people breed to fill those niches. Just remember that few people want a dog like that. You could always go back to the pre AKC days and breed strictly based on working ability. Then you wouldn't have to worry about dogs bred without regard to working ability. Remember that it didn't use to matter what a dog looked like. All that mattered was that the dog could do the job. We have the standards we have today because most of these jobs are gone. The standards are what sets today's dogs apart, not working ability.

See I agree to an extent.  I have toy dogs, but not everyone wants a toy dog, nor should they.  I have two shelties that have not and will not ever see sheep.  People are attracted to breeds for many reasons and as louiereck mentioned, most people getting a dog want a dog primarily if not solely to be a companion.  Times change and dogs change to fit the niche we NEED at that time.  A lot of jobs dogs previously filled have no use now or are illegal.  Should the breed die out?  Or should the breed change to fit into the modern world? 

 I want a sighthound.  It will not hunt for me, so does that mean I shouldn't get one?  Hunting is not what draws me to that group of breeds, it's the package as a whole and that includes what makes them good hunters.  I may lure course- I'd like to- but that's not the same as hunting hares with a hound. 

 Border collies are still very much used in their work, though even then it's probably not the majority of BCs in the US.  Most breeds simply do not work any more.  I have shelties and rarely will you find someone actually working a sheltie.  They make good pets, and I don't see anything wrong with breeding them the way Trey's breeder does.  They're bred for conformation, good temperaments, and performance sports. 

Yes they are relatively short lived as are all of the giant breeds.

Not all.  I am working with my second generation of Maremma Sheepdogs now, a breed still currently bred almost exclusively for work (no show here in the US).  Their life expectancy is between 14 and 16 years, just  like a medium to large sized dog.

My younster Tully is still growing, at only 125 pounds.  Eventually he'll most likely reach his sire's weight of 150 pounds, once he's mature.  Size doesn't equal short life span.   

brookcove

 

Yes they are relatively short lived as are all of the giant breeds.

Not all.  I am working with my second generation of Maremma Sheepdogs now, a breed still currently bred almost exclusively for work (no show here in the US).  Their life expectancy is between 14 and 16 years, just  like a medium to large sized dog.

My younster Tully is still growing, at only 125 pounds.  Eventually he'll most likely reach his sire's weight of 150 pounds, once he's mature.  Size doesn't equal short life span.   

No it shouldnt anyway. 

The problem with the IWH is they are largely(no pun intended) inbred, over bred, and with no regard to their health. I see a LOT wrong with that standard. When Captain George Graham "saved" the breed he worked with only what he had at first.. a small handful of dogs and a lot of outcrossing with other large breeds and other sight hounds. THEN they started breeding for consistency and type... which translates into inbreeding once they were entered into a closed registry. I'm sure he meant well, but it ended in disaster.

I am a huge fan of the sight hound group. i want to some day own one and i DO intend to hunt with it. However there is a catch 22... the rescues i know dont like the idea of their precious hounds out working.. they could break a nail! No.. if i got a dog it would be by accident as there are no breeders in this area.. at least none that advertise. or it would be a first cross from someone who actually hunts with them. though there are some in midwest that course coyotes with different mixes of sight hounds.. Borzoi, Grey, Saluki, Scottish Deerhound.

and YES i i hope i live to see the day that dogs go back to being dogs. where they are bred for function and work and not just as an ornament for someone's house and yard. If that were to happen then there wouldnt be any need for breed rescues or breed specific health problems or BYBs or puppy mills. Its my opinion that that would be the BEST thing to happen to dogs. it would be sad for some to see certain breeds become extinct because they have no jobs... but at the rate people and breeders are going.. its going to happen anyway because a lot of breeders are irresponsible and careless and they sell puppies to OTHER careless and irresponsible people. Dogs are dying in horrible conditions now... A dog that is allowed to grow old gracefully, even if he is the last of his kind, is a LOT better than over breeding and producing millions of his kind while allowing thousands to die in shelters or in the hands of idiots. The IWH is one breed that should've been allowed to become extinct. if the old Irish Kings could see them now they would be reduced to tears! But breeders justify their actions by saying "Well no one hunts wolves with hounds, and most sight hounds dont actually hunt hares anymore.. so lets turn them into giant sofa cushions that cost thousands of dollars in vet bills! And besides, we're preserving HISTORY!"

i still say if you want a pet then go adopt one from a rescue and stop buying from the breeders. no matter how responsible they claim to be, breeding a pet quality working dog is just silly. What kind of responsible breeder sells a husky, fox hound, or border collie to a suburbanite to be used as a pet couch potato anyway? I can understand them adopting out a dog that doesnt fit into the working lifestyle... but he should be fixed.. AFTER he has been tested for ability. and the people interested should be tested on their knowledge of working dogs.

Breed for a purpose.. SAR, therapy, protection, leading the blind, hearing for the deaf, helping the wheelchair bound.... there are STILL plenty of jobs out there for dogs.
 

There are very few dogs with jobs in the USA. Nearly all dogs here are pets. Say what you want, that is an undisputable truth. As for the poor useless Irish Wolfhounds, they make wonderful pets. That is why I keep them in my home. They enrich my life as do many other people's nonworking dogs. That is the dogs niche in 21st century in the USA. Accept it. It isn't going to change.

DumDog

 that makes the most sense to me. the dogs not suited for working should find pet homes... they should NOT be bred to become a separate line of "Pet Quality" dogs.

Yep, and that's why the pet quality dogs ALWAYS go home with limited registration and a spay/neuter clause in their contract.

See, if everyone got their purebreds from legit breeders that know what they are doing, this whole working vs. pet thing wouldn't even be an issue.
 

Maybe it's just me, but most of the things that make a lab a good working dog are also things that make me value them as companions.  Desire to be near people (helpful when the dog is loose in the field), desire to work with their people/trainablility (which is what you want when you are trying to direct the dog towards a duck it did not see fall), the athleticism that makes them so versatile (the working value of this is obvious), and the desire to retrieve and be in water (I like a dog that fetches and I like being near water).

As far as temperament goes, it is obvious to me from what I have read of the lab's history that their happy-go-lucky nature was not the result of breeders "dumbing them down," but was always present back in the days when they were pretty much exclusively a working dog.  This is a quote from a historical article on labs:

"It was said that the dogs would work long hours with the fisherman in the cold waters, then be brought home to play with the fisherman's children. The wonderful temperament of the Labrador Retriever is documented back to its early days in England and has made them ideal family pets as well as accomplished sporting dogs."

louiereck

There are very few dogs with jobs in the USA. Nearly all dogs here are pets. Say what you want, that is an undisputable truth. That is the dogs niche in 21st century in the USA. Accept it. It isn't going to change.

There are enough that National Geographic has a tv series about them - http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/programs/dogs-with-jobs.html

Animal Planet had a tv series about them too, called k-9 to 5 where it featured not one, but usually three different dogs and their jobs.

and what about police dogs across the nation? there are a lot of police departments that have a couple of K-9s working for them. and then there is Search and Rescue people with their dogs. the military also trains a legion of dogs to be sent to the front lines to fight along side the soldiers. they have been doing that since wars began... nothing new in that department. and then you have dogs that sniff out contraband at airports and shipping docks. The city i live in has an Australian Shepherd that you can hire to sniff out TERMITES!

http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/dogjobs.htm

 A job for a dog is not something you have to join a club to do. my dogs job is to protect my home and family. Their job is also to protect the live stock from wild animals that want destroy the nests of the birds, eat the eggs or the birds themselves. So far in the year that we've been here with the bullies two possums, one rattle snake, and several "mystery animals" have been dealt with by the dogs. And the dogs that once lived on this property before them hunted deer, pheasant, hogs, as well as entertained the grand kids and guarded against trespassers.

All in a day's work... whether your dog carries the mail to the house, escorts you on daily walks, or just LOOKS intimidating.. in his mind he's doing a job. most dog trainers will tell you that if you have a troublesome dog to give it a job.

" As for the poor useless Irish Wolfhounds, they make wonderful pets. That is why I keep them in my home. They enrich my life as do many other people's nonworking dogs."

this list i found is an awfully high price the wolf hound has to pay just to enrich someone's life..

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/faq.htm#health

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/faq.htm#bursa 

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/faq.htm#watch%20dog 

After reading all of that i am surprised the club doesnt change the name to Irish Cream Puff.. you cant do anything with them! It breaks my heart because i love this breed, but i dont want to go anywhere near them for fear of crippling them beyond repair.

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/tobreedornot.htm

" Responsible breeders strive to produce hounds which conform to this standard."

and the standard :

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/thestandard.htm 

"and it is desired to firmly establish a race that shall average from 32 to 34 inches in dogs, showing the requisite power, activity, courage and symmetry."

funny how courage is almost last on the list in regards to a breed that once guarded castles, kings, and brought down wolves and deer in Ireland.

why the heck did they save this breed again?

Now i know why the boys in the UK like to cross breed their lurchers and avoid the registered namby pamby show dogs.. they would starve to death if they relied on the registered pure breds to help them hunt.

you know.... its tempting to me.. i might just join the IWH club and see if i can make a difference in the health and quality of life for this breed.... no one else seems to care about that.. just as long as they have a nice pet. Sure companionship and gentleness in the house and among children is a great thing to have! but my rambunctious working bred American Bulldogs can bounce through fields all day long, jump six feet into the air to catch what ever you tell them to, one of them will even climb trees.. they swim rivers, climb hills, then trot by your side all the way back home and flop down on the floor and let children climb all over them. they can also sleep the whole night at the foot of your bed without making a peep, other than the odd snore. and when morning comes they wait quietly for your next move. Want to sit in your chair all day and read? thats fine with them.. want to go hiking, or biking? thats good too! very few english bulldogs (supposedly the most worthy to join the ranks of AKC) can only do half of what my dogs can do. heck.. you have wipe the english bulldog's rear end because he cant clean it himself!

What my dogs can do is, to me, what a balanced working dog attitude should be all about.. or any breed of dog for that matter. you shouldn't have to worry about a keyed up, psycho-dog bouncing out of his own skin as if he drank a pot of coffee. and you also should not have to worry about a dog that cant jog across the yard without getting winded or having him suffer from heat stroke the moment he steps outside. just like you should not have to read a mile long list potentially fatal COMMON health defects. thats pure madness!!

If the 21st century means i have to deal with a dog that is going to drop dead any moment because he ate his dinner too fast, or accrue vet bills that cost more than i am worth as a human being then, sadly.. i will never own another dog because its far too cruel to allow that to happen to them. But i REFUSE to accept it. i will do my best to make sure it changes. I cant stand people that just ACCEPT a horrible existence for any creature. You got me shaking my fist now!

DumDog

There are enough that National Geographic has a tv series about them - http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/programs/dogs-with-jobs.html

Animal Planet had a tv series about them too, called k-9 to 5 where it featured not one, but usually three different dogs and their jobs.

Just how many dogs do you think are out there working day in and out.  Maybe a couple of hundred thousand.  That is a tiny amount compared to the total number of dogs in the country.  Lets say there are 300,000 real working dogs (which I think is very high) well that is .3% of the total population of dogs in the US.

O and the legions of dogs trained for war.  In WW2 only about 10,000 dogs finished training for war duties and only about 1900 went overseas.  The rest were doing duties in the US.  Considering the number of troops we had in the way that is a real small number.  I Vietnam only about 4900 where used the largest ever concentration.