Where Working Dog = Show Dog

    • Gold Top Dog

     It's funny reading something almost two years later. I was curious to see whether anything had changed in my view.  And, not at all.

    The details of how a dog is judged in the show ring, and what characteristics mean the difference between excellence and a non-starter - this is a moot point. The fact is that showing is itself an entirely different path that a dog as delicately balanced as the working Border Collie, cannot pursue without undermining working goals.

    The problem is that it's hard for someone to understand, who hasn't trained a Border Collie (or other herding dog) to the highest levels of achievement - competance, not even excellence.

    There was recently a big thread on the Border Collie Boards comparing achievement and training in agility and "herding." It's truly impossible to communicate what has to happen between dog and handler out there, day after day, from training to competition, or unusual working challenges. It's as dependant on instinct as hunting dogs - you send your dog and pray that he's got the "right stuff" to handle the challenges he'll meet. But it's as dependant on strict, drop-dead obedience as protection dog training. That's just a small part of the mental element.

    Those who are snorting because they've done title trialing (ASCA, AHBA, AKC, CKC) and are thinking "It's not that hard!" - well, I'm not sure how many people know or want to know how those events are set up for success, even at the highest levels. I had an AHBA trial at my farm a few years ago. When the judges visited, they exclaimed that my sheep were way too difficult and they halved all the distances on the courses, even the advanced courses.

    My sheep are nothing compared to the sheep at most USBCHA trials. Many of them use sheep that have almost never seen dogs - or have only seen dogs that want to eat them! Not to mention the distances. The last trial I was at, I ran Ted in the baby dog class and he had to get the sheep 350 yards away. That's YARDS, not feet. That was the second time he'd ever run in a trial. He got them and we came in fourth, by the way Wink

    So what I mean is that it's already difficult enough to breed for a dog that has the right stuff to handle this work, and the training involved. Throwing something as arbitrary as "eye color" or "coat quality" or even seemingly benign as an amount of angulation, into the mix, needlessly narrows the gene pool.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I really can't speak of BC's... as it's a breed I know very little about.  I would say you clearly have amazing working animals, though!!  And kudos on your placement as well!!  Awesome! :o)

    I will say the standard is put forth as a definition of the breed.  So to have a long haired weimaraner (which does exist...) or a gray border collie... you no longer have a dog that is defined by the breed standard.  While this isn't bad.... what is the point of saying you have a BC (or any breed) if it doesn't conform to the standard?  They are bred to be recognizable. That's why you have purebred dogs, bred for a specific function... which requires a specific look (due to the requirements of their job.  I realize I'm taking it to an extreme here.... and that's probably not what you mean when you say "coat quality" I was just picking an extreme.

    Angulation "seemingly benign" LOL Right? (to explain) Extreme angulation can change the dogs ability to work for prolonged amounts.  It takes more muscle to use that leg therefore it causes the dog to tire faster, for a hunting breed, this is a problem.  "Moderately angled" is up for interpretation though!  We are having a lot of discussion on this in the weimaraner circles right now... the dual dog as well as angle (and other extremes show dogs end up with to be "flashy".) There will always be people on each extreme "I don't need a beautiful dog, just a hard hunting one!" "My genetically superior dog is gorgeous... but wouldn't know a bird if it landed on it's head."

    I agree, there is too much bottle necking and we have a real problem with over used studs... probably in every breed. You also have a large separation from the working and show lines in most breeds.  You also have extreme line breeding.... which has both benefits and drawbacks, of course. 

    What I keep seeing above is the word "extreme"... what we need is more moderation.

    You probably won't find me out hunting on a tuesday for the sheer joy of killing birds. ... rather it's to prove my dogs ability AND DESIRE to work, which is JUST important as his conformation titles and OFA's, if you ask me.  Yes.  So while AKC trials maybe a joke to some, from what I've learned about them, it allows you to judge if the dog has the ability. I know people who have Master Hunters on their weims, who enjoy hunting as a hobby, the level of training and precision it takes for the MH is more extreme than they use when they go out for leisure.   Once they finish their MH they relax on the level of precision. I would say that is a level of difficulty is significant, in that case!

    (to change the subject, and not pointed at anyone in particular) I also agree.  People who think it's "easy" to have a show dog, would not believe the amount of training that goes into it.  Someone who'd never been to a dog show showed up at the Weim Nationals, they were shocked at the sheer number of intact males in the same vicinity (just inches away from each other at some points) who showed no aggression, standing perfectly still, moving on lead at a gait versus loping or pacing.... I had no apperciation for the sport till I got involved, so I maybe just preaching to my former self! :o) LOL

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sera_J
    So to have a long haired weimaraner (which does exist...) or a gray border collie... you no longer have a dog that is defined by the breed standard.  While this isn't bad.... what is the point of saying you have a BC (or any breed) if it doesn't conform to the standard?  They are bred to be recognizable.

     

     

    Breaks my little, Crested lovin heart.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Is your heart becoming a powderpuff, or staying hairless? :o)
    • Gold Top Dog

     My heart loves hairless, but my eyes see only Puffs. It kills me to see the extreme hairies taking it every time. I hope to get a ridiculously correct, beautiful, moves like a dream true hairless, one of these days, and kick some Nair'd butt.

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove

     It's funny reading something almost two years later. I was curious to see whether anything had changed in my view.  And, not at all.

     

    Me too, except now I would place even less emphasis on the show titles (and for GSDs I'm not talking about AKC CH, couldn't give a rip about that one way or the other, sorry).  I guess I'm becoming a SchH snob.  The more titles I put on Kenya, the nuttier she gets.  SchH and HGH are the true tests of the breed.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    I guess I'm becoming a SchH snob.

     

    We all have things we are passionate about... and they don't all have to be the same things :)  I enjoy AKC showing, though I think when anyone takes anything to the extreme it can be to their detriment.  I also enjoy training my dogs in other aspects of AKC sports as well as WCA stuff, and have a great time doing it.

    I hope you get that perfect pup, Jennie!! KICK THOSE HAIRY BASTAGES BUTTS!! lol

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    a gray border collie

    Actually, this is even an "acceptable" color in the AKC standard - any color is acceptable other than solid white. It's hard to win with a non-black and white, non-rough coat, however.

     

    While this isn't bad.... what is the point of saying you have a BC (or any breed) if it doesn't conform to the standard?  They are bred to be recognizable. That's why you have purebred dogs, bred for a specific function... which requires a specific look (due to the requirements of their job.

    This is where we differ from the conformation people. We disagree that it takes a certain look to do the job. In fact, what happens is that the job has defined the dog, and absolutely nothing else. Amazingly, though there has been NO "standard" for the British or American Border Collie for its entire history, it's still a pretty easy to identify dog.

    You might look at one of my friend's dogs in the pound and not be able to see he or she is a Border Collie for sure. But that's not what matters to us. Who cares if you don't know that my dog is a Border Collie just by looking? What matters is that my minimally trained young dog can stop hungry sheep from entering my neighbors' vegetable gardens:

     

    Breeding for "the look" first puts the cart before the horse for us. There's no way to predict the body type that will function correctly under the complex extremes the dogs undergo. Yes, hunting's tough, but I'm fairly sure that the dogs aren't regularly required to do stuff like this:

     

    The little twist at the end of the above sequence is evident in all of these pictures. It looks like the dog is inviting the sheep to dance, but what they are all doing, is relieving pressure the second the sheep "gives in." Ted's having a bit of trouble (first picture) unlocking his eye, but his shoulder's giving out.

    Even on my little farm, Ted's constantly having to do stuff like this. Actually, if you look at my siggy, you'll see not one of the dogs is straight up and down, or single tracking.

    This is Ted. Tell me that a judge would NOT first shudder, then dismiss him with a laugh.

     

     

    You've seen what the second dog above looks like as a youngster - he's in the "Twist pups" group. Imagine you are a breed judge, and most of the dogs look like this:

    And my friend brings in her dog that looks like this (obviously cleaned up - he cleans up nicely, LOL):

     

    People who think it's "easy" to have a show dog, would not believe the amount of training that goes into it.  Someone who'd never been to a dog show showed up at the Weim Nationals, they were shocked at the sheer number of intact males in the same vicinity (just inches away from each other at some points) who showed no aggression, standing perfectly still, moving on lead at a gait versus loping or pacing.

    Those who decided to cull the show dog from the working registry are well aware of this. The two pursuits in many ways reward diametrically opposing traits. You can't always train every dog to do every possible discipline. And experience has shown those who developed the Border Collie, and continue to maintain the breed, that conformation showing is incompatible with maintaining a high standard of working ability in the breed.

    None of this is to say that we do not have a breed standard. We do. It's a performance standard.  You can find a description here: National trials sheepdog course.

    Here's a little picture illustration:

    400 yards to the sheep is a minimum by the way. There are shorter courses, but the trials that really mean anything fall into the above description.

    To become a "Champion" a dog will have to complete a course twice as long, work with four times as many sheep, and complete a complicated sorting exercise.

    These courses are intensely grueling, both physically and mentally. These are dogs that work six hours days and come back and are game for a walk or frisbee. But once or twice around these courses and they want to snooze in the crate the rest of the day!!

    So we train for the job and let the "form" take care of itself. The Border Collie has, until recently, been incredibly low in health issues in the breed. Frankly, the issues we see today have crept in due to a few generations of less focus on function and less than honest breeding decisions - breeding dogs that don't truly do a real day's work day after day.

    Interestingly, the show lines have at least two, and possibly three issues that are unknown in the working lines. Two of these three are fatal conditions, sadly.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sera_J

    Liesje
    I guess I'm becoming a SchH snob.

     

    We all have things we are passionate about... and they don't all have to be the same things :)  I enjoy AKC showing, though I think when anyone takes anything to the extreme it can be to their detriment.  I also enjoy training my dogs in other aspects of AKC sports as well as WCA stuff, and have a great time doing it.

     

    I think it also varies by breed.  At present I am not aware of any dogs being seriously campaigned in the AKC ring that have a single SchH title.  As far as GSDs are concerned I just don't view AKC obedience, rally, or herding titles as true breedworthiness tests (high level agility yes).  But I do hear of lots of other breeds being shown and doing hunt tests and such (assuming that is the barometer for these breeds).  I strongly believe that form follows function.  I don't really care one way or the other about the extreme american show type GSDs and I'm not at all upset if others choose this type and prefer show above everything else, but I simply do not hold them in much regard as far as the standard for the breed as a whole.

    I've just withdrawn further and further from AKC participation because of the negative views towards the types of training and activities that I believe are the true test of the breed.  It's one thing not to do them, but it's another thing to condemn them.

    • Gold Top Dog

    But for a companion breed, I think that AKC rally, obedience, etc etc are a nice point to start with. The dog should have a brain, please? There are TWO Chinese Cresteds with an RAE, and ONE OTCH Crested in breed history. Hundreds are awarded Chs every year. Honestly? I'm a novice trainer. I got Ena's RA in four tries, with one perfect score (the first try was the third day of a four day show, and the jump tried to bite her, I swear!). She got six RN legs, all with scores in the mid-high 90s. They're not impossible to train, by any means, and I feel that *all* breeds of dog should have some sort of emphasis on "doing stuff". A dog with an unstable temperament really isn't going to stand up to the kind of showing it takes to get an OTCH. Emma can't even get a CD.

    • Gold Top Dog

    jennie_c_d

    But for a companion breed, I think that AKC rally, obedience, etc etc are a nice point to start with. The dog should have a brain, please? There are TWO Chinese Cresteds with an RAE, and ONE OTCH Crested in breed history. Hundreds are awarded Chs every year. Honestly? I'm a novice trainer. I got Ena's RA in four tries, with one perfect score (the first try was the third day of a four day show, and the jump tried to bite her, I swear!). She got six RN legs, all with scores in the mid-high 90s. They're not impossible to train, by any means, and I feel that *all* breeds of dog should have some sort of emphasis on "doing stuff". A dog with an unstable temperament really isn't going to stand up to the kind of showing it takes to get an OTCH. Emma can't even get a CD.

     

    This is a really good point.  The issues of the BC and GSD (and to a lesser extent, the sporting breeds), are really, really different for a lot of the breeds whose primary historical purpose has always been companionship (ratting may be secondary for some of the toys, but it was never the primary reason for keeping them- people have always just liked dogs as companions, and most of our modern toys developed as pepole had the leisure (and resources) to support a 'useless' but emotionally valuable critter.) But obedience and rally (and to a lesser extent agility- I think agility rewards a hair-trigger reactivity and high arousal level that *I* really dislike, without requiring the balance and self control of say, herding or hunting or protection, where you need the working dog to NOT eat the sheep or crush the gamebird or kill the 'criminal' (vs just holding)).

    • Gold Top Dog

     Exactly, and we have a whoooole bunch of dogs being bred as companions, even when they traditionally weren't. There is going to be a companion group, in the AKC, next year, as well as the toy group. Every dog in either of those... doing something, even therapy dog qualifications and CGCs, to prove that the dogs ARE companions (and not holy terrors, like my beloved Em brat), could be really useful for gene pools.

    • Gold Top Dog
    jennie_c_d

     My heart loves hairless, but my eyes see only Puffs. It kills me to see the extreme hairies taking it every time. I hope to get a ridiculously correct, beautiful, moves like a dream true hairless, one of these days, and kick some Nair'd butt.

     

     I worked with some Crested people for years. I just can't grasp why the show breeders are so willing to breed away from the one trait that makes a Crested a Crested, that sets them apart from all other breeds. You shouldn't have to shave and Nair a hairless breed. This hairy-hairless thing always has made me laugh - my dogs would be hairy-hairless dogs if I shaved them too!

     Show breeding in most cases encourages "ultra typing" - the selection and exaggeration of certain traits. Collie heads have gotten longer and skinnier, their eyes have gotten smaller and smaller and they have gotten hairier and hairier. GSDs have been bred for exaggerated movement (something which I am seeing more and more of with all breeds now). Greyhounds are taller, thinner and have exaggerated elegance. Corgis have been selected to be longer bodies, shorter legs and heavier bone. Crested have been selected to have more and more furnishing on their legs, tail and head which unfortunately has come with having more and more hair all over. This is the flaw of conformation shows, which were intended to be judging the dogs being shown to the breed standard. Instead, the dogs being shown become the breed standard, regardless of what the standard says. The PWD standard states the dogs should have 1" of hair on the body for a retriever clip but the dogs shown/win are groomed like Bichons, obviously much more than 1" of hair. In many breeds, the big winning dogs of 25 years ago wouldn't be given a second look in today's ring. The claim is that it is due to the breeds being "improved" but the idea of breeding purebred dogs is not to "improve" the breed but to preserve it. And certainly it can be asked - is making the breeds into caricatures really an improvement?

    • Gold Top Dog

     I agree, wholeheartedly. I see a lot of breeds that are nothing like what they were. Cresteds were only accepted into the AKC in 1991, and they're already to a point of ridiculousness.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sera_J
    (to change the subject, and not pointed at anyone in particular) I also agree.  People who think it's "easy" to have a show dog, would not believe the amount of training that goes into it.  Someone who'd never been to a dog show showed up at the Weim Nationals, they were shocked at the sheer number of intact males in the same vicinity (just inches away from each other at some points) who showed no aggression, standing perfectly still, moving on lead at a gait versus loping or pacing.... I had no apperciation for the sport till I got involved, so I maybe just preaching to my former self! :o) LOL

     I show dogs and I still find, compared to just about anything else you can title your dog in the behaviors required of the dog for conformation are pretty easy. I train my dogs very well for the ring - gaiting, hand stacking, freestacking, looking at the judge but it was not complicated to train them to do the behaviors. The hard part about conformation really is the handling which requires a lot of skill/practice and the subjectivity of the whole thing. In most other venues, if you and your dog do well you will get something for your efforts but in conformation only two dogs will get points each day and only one will win BOB. Even if your dog is showing the best and you are handling well, you will sometimes come out of the ring with nothing.