Roscoe has lost it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    OK in my case I did exactly as you say (as it was the same thing trained and simulated in our training) and it did nothing.  This was not an "aggressive" dog either, a highly reactive dog that had never been taught any rules or manners and anytime he saw another dog he completely redirected on whatever or whoever was closest.  There were several similar incidents that happened with the same dog with different people.  The only people to blame are the original owners.  The dog is in a good home.

    So, if you are so experienced dealing with aggressive dogs, then what would you have done differently?  Get into a physical struggle with a dog that easily outstrengthens and nearly outweighs you? You mention that you have stopped an "attack" twice

    I think you are way oversimplifying these issues.  Most dogs that "attack" really aren't even "aggressive".  But that's another issue entirely, what IS an aggressive dog?  To me a truly aggressive dog is one that DOES attack despite being healthy and getting clear body signals from the other person or dog.  Such dogs are rare, but it does happen.  The ones I have known were basically all fear biters.  To them, your description of the human's body language doesn't matter, b/c they are scared of you and it insights a "fight or flight" physiological response in them and being fear biters, they fight.  It's not a matter of making yourself appear strong or weak, it's a matter of getting out of the dog's space and backing off their threshold.

    Just based on a few posts here it's impossible to say where Roscoe falls in the spectrum.  So I would say rule out medical issues first, then work on management and behavior mod to see if it can be improved, if not controlled in the very least.  Only the OP can say what s/he is prepared to deal with or can speak to the quality of life of the dog.

    • Gold Top Dog

    *giggles* Why are we discussing how to deal with a dog attack? It seems to me that whatever Roscoe's problem is, he can't really be seen as a "normal" dog at the moment if he's flinging himself at sleeping dogs and that kind of thing.

    For the record, I've had two dogs "attack" me, too. One didn't get as far as biting because I hastily backed out of his teritory. The other didn't get as far as biting because I spun around and growled at her. Would I have done the latter for the first dog? Hell no! He was a very unstable dog. Sometimes he'd run away and sometimes he'd fly at you. When he went for me I was already facing him and making eye contact. I whipped my eyes down and hurried backwards. The other dog snuck up behind me. I only knew she was there because I heard the nails clicking on the road. She was coming in at a dead run, but facing her was exactly the right thing to do because she had waited until I wasn't looking to come after me.

    There used to be this 3-legged mongrel of a Boxer that lived a few doors down from us and it didn't matter what you did, he'd still come at you and he would jump up and bite. The only way you could avoid a showdown with him was to cross the street before he saw you. If you crossed the street after he saw you he'd still come after you.

    • Gold Top Dog

    In my thinking, Corvus is right on the money. There's no point in discussing what a person should do when a dog attacks, because I don't believe Roscoe is acting in a "normal" way, even including the spectrum of "aggression."

    To lay my cards on the table: I specialize in aggressive rehab. I take the dogs that other rescuers won't touch because of known aggressive behaviors. I also take dogs from owners, some of whom are rather advanced dog trainers such as goosedog trainers and stockdog trainers.

    The first thing I do when deciding whether to take a dog on, is carry on a dialog with people who have experience with the dog's behavior. My experience allows me to pick up signals from the things people say, and from how the dog is described to behave in certain situations, that help me evaluate whether I can simply advise, or whether the dog should be removed from the situation, or whether it's a situation that I do not want to get involved in (in which case, I will advise getting the help of a certified veterinary behaviorist). 

    Next I meet the dog. I meet with more aggressive behaviors at this point than at any other time in a training cycle - obviously because I don't know the dog, but most often because the dog's behavior is linked to his or her relationship with the owner. If that's awry, the presence of a stranger adds fuel to the fire.

    I don't look for "attacks." If you want to ask, "How many times has a dog attempted to bite you?" I'd say, maybe half a dozen or so. I've handled about two dozen specifically aggressive dogs in the course of my work, and the half a dozen bite attempts actually represent, in a couple cases, multiples from the same dog.

    But part of doing what I do, safely, means being very alert for signs that a dog is past his or her comfort level and knowing how to defuse that tension. Very rarely does it involve any kind of pressure. If I can get it very, very early, I can ask for the dog's attention and put a little verbal pressure on the dog. A herding trainer friend of mine says, "Ask, demand, withdraw."

    That means if the dog is stressing I give him a chance to think it through - get the brain going with a request I know he can handle, a mild correction (this does work) and repeat the request to see whether he's got anything to give, and then take whatever the dog can give, even if it's not the exact thing I asked for. Wow, that's really hard to verbalize. If none of that works, we're outta there. We take five, or whatever it takes for the dog to regain the ability to think.

    Suffice it to say that the safest thing for anyone but a pro, is to withdraw immediately. Don't put an aggressive dog into situations it doesn't have the tools to handle.

    That's an important thing that a lot of people can't seem to realize about aggression. It's not disobedience, like a child throwing a temper tantrum. Aggression represents a dog that doesn't have the ability to deal with whatever is going on at that moment, in a socially acceptable way.

    Rehabbing aggression, when I do it, means trying to find the tools that the dog needs, and then developing them and reinforcing them. By the time a dog leaves here, they typically don't just have the ability to survive the situations that set them off before - they enjoy those situations.

    So back to Roscoe. The problem here is that I am not gathering from the information given, any kind of pattern. The biting is never what I look at in these cases. When a dog bites or even "attacks" tells me nothing, really. What I need to know is where the adrenaline is ramping up, where the comfort level is being crossed, where the dog's brains fall out his ears and goes into "fight or flight" or whatever other low-level brain process drives his behavior.

    Poor Roscoe is either not giving any clear signals prior to his going into the zone, or his owner is missing them. I don't mean hard stares and growling - that's a dog already in the zone. Given the severity of the incidents, I would not think the owner is missing signs of stress. If it's that there truly isn't any buildup, this is a combination I don't like to see if there are no medical issues.

    Idiopathic aggression is untreatable by amateurs. I even consider myself an amateur in this respect. I'd strongly recommend the owner to get a consultation with someone of the caliber of Karen Overall - someone certified to work with both meds and behavior.

    You might be able to manage this aggression without professional help, but he will not improve. And management means complete isolation from anyone you don't want bitten (including other dogs). Idiopathic means without apparent cause - which means you will not be able to predict when he bites, nor how bad it will be.

    With all that said, I really think he sounds like he has a medical problem. What it sounds most like is low thyroid. I had an older dog, my sweet Ben, who was just a teeny bit of a grump around other dogs, at normal times, and a total sweetheart around people. But he suddenly started randomly attacking other dogs, and even snapped at me once. He had a serious medical problem at the same time and the tests we ran for that, at that time, showed the low thyroid. As I said, he was actually "low normal" but thankfully my vet said the symptoms were more important than the test numbers and sure enough, the thyroid replacement got him back to normal in just a few days.

    Just last year, a lady brought a Border Collie up to my place for evaluation. She was practically in tears as she described how her dog had started randomly attacking her other dogs, visitors to her farm, and her husband even. I looked at the dog while she was talking and she was overweight, had a really dry faded looking coat, and she was remarkably uninterested in everything around her (my old farm was kind of like Doggy Disneyland with ducks walking around, the ponds, the huge fields, the sheep everywhere, and lots of doggy smells).

    She had brought her dog to try her on sheep, and the dog was sort of interested but I could tell she really didn't feel that great. So, when we were saying our good-byes, I told her some things to help manage the situation for a while, said I'd be fine taking her dog after a certain date (I had a dog leaving in a few weeks), and then I told her that the first thing she needed to do was check that thyroid.

    She was dubious but bless her heart, she actually did it the very next day. And she wrote me very excitedly to say that her vet during the visit was inclined to diagnose her dog with thyroid even without the test results (that took a few days to get back). Good vet! And she was right - it was the usual "low normal" that BCs have. She wrote a week later to say that her dog was almost back to normal - she was over the moon!

    I very much hope that Roscoe has as happy a conclusion to his story. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer

    Chuffy

    This makes no sense to me, sorry.   If you become "weak" in the dog's eyes then surely he sees you are no threat and therefore has no more need to chase you, even more so than if you simply stood still?

    I also don't understand how, in practise, you can get all passers by to stop outside the fence until Roscoe has determined they are not a threat and given up charging the fence... if indeed that IS what would happen, and not that he would keep going until he either bust the fence and possibly hurt someone, or injured himself.

    If he has a medical issue then I really don't believe that all this "he sees you as weak" or "he sees it is no threat" is really particularly relevant, as you are labouring under the assumption that this is how a "normal" dog operates.  Even if this were 100% correct, if he has a medical problem, all bets are pretty much off, until that medical issue has been diagnosed and treatment has at least begun, because he is NOT operating in the same way as a "normal" dog.

     

    I never suggested that the OP should make every jogger stop when they pass by, that's just plain stupid. I was just talking what to do in general if a dog attack you in the street.

     

     Sorry.  I was thinking of your suggestion in the context of the topic. 

    espencer
    Being attacked twice, stood on my ground and the dog never touched me, i think i know what i'm talking about. I would like to hear your experiences as well.

     

    Gosh, TWICE eh.  Well well.  I think that's a smidge off topic though.... maybe mods and admin and everyone (not least the the OP who will probably be revisiting the thread in the hopes of finding helpful advice and support) would appreciate me opening a new thread to tackle that, if one has not been opened already.

    Edit: I didn't see one created, so I did it.  Here it is.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Hi everyone and thanks for the suggestions/input. I trusted the vey very much and he explained this is a neurological problem. Roscoe attacked another dog very badly after my last post and spent some more time standing by himself growling at nothing. At the vet he was his normal sweet self. We talked about blood work, we talked about medication and training.... but this is not an issue of physical health or behavioral problems. There was something mental that caused Roscoe to do what he did. The vet himself owned an animal with the exact same symptoms and put it to sleep.

     

    I made the same decision. The vet and I cried together and sent Roscoe to Heaven. I am heartbroken. Please no harsh responses, I am already overwhelmed with grief for my poor baby. I hyperventilated, fainted and spent the night at the hospital. I've never made a harder decision. RIP Roscoe. You were the best dog on earth and now you're the best dog in heaven.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'm so sorry for your loss. I certainly cannot place any blame for releasing a dog from his demons. Sometimes, the hardest thing to do is the right thing. ((((((hugs)))))

    • Gold Top Dog

    I, too, am very sorry for your loss.  Run free and happy Roscoe.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sorry for your loss, RIP Roscoe.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thank goodness that you have a vet with experience and who you trust - they are worth their weight in gold, especially in moments like these.

     

    ((hugs))

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm so sorry to hear that it was not something easily fixed and that you had to make such a hard decision. It is such a tragedy, but I think you did the best by him that you could.

    *hugs*

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sorry to hear that, Beejou.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm so sorry.  What a terrible decision to have to make.  Broken Heart

    • Gold Top Dog

    You have my deepest sympathy. Roscoe is, believe me, singing your praises right now for having the courage to release him. Even if you pursued the medication route there would be much tension and adjustment and no guarantee that the outcome would be different.

    I have been where you are several times and it never, ever gets easier. I've never had to put my own physically (apparently) healthy young dog to sleep, but when I have to deal with this with rescue dogs, I find it helps to remind myself that unpredictable aggression is no difference to the dog's having a painful deadly disease with no cure. Even worse, where for a dog with a physical disease there is human comfort and sympathy, for the aggressive dog there is only fear and loathing, isolation and cold handling.

    Thank goodness for an understanding and knowlegeable vet, and for you to have the self-possession to think calmly at least long enough to do the right thing for Roscoe, rather than clinging selfishly to his life. Your bond will not be severed by death, I do not believe.

    Peace and hope to you at this time. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Peace to you and Roscoe............no matter the why of it, this decision is NEVER easy.............

    Run free, fast and happy Roscoe !!

    • Gold Top Dog

    My heart goes out to you.  Please remember that Roscoe thanks you for relieving him from his pain (mental pain is just as bad as physical).  He is now running free and happy at the bridge.

    (((hugs)))