Roscoe has lost it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Roscoe has lost it.

    My 2 year old GSD mix has been acting out for the about 5 months, and it's gotten to the point it's dangerous. I recently seperated from my fiance (who kept the beagles and the ridgeback) and I took Roscoe and the Corgi. I've been trying to blame his behavior on the move, but he's not anxious or fearful, and honestly it's been going on before the split. He is no longer able to go to the dog park, which he used to love. Today I was walking him and he grabbed a perfectly polite lab on the face and would not let go. He would not respond to commands and it took all of my strength to pry him off. As soon as we were about 10 feet away, he was back to his happy self and wanting to play fetch. He charges the fence and slams his head against it at people, dogs, cars, anything that comes by. I am 100% sure if he could get through it he would attack. I can no longer call him away either. He used to "hush" if I told him but now I have to drag him away. He also misplaces the aggression and attacks one of the other dogs when he can't bite his intended target. I took his collar when he was trying to grab my neighbor's dog and he spun around on me, showing his teeth and growling, but stopped when he saw it was me. He sunk his teeth into my friends lab instead. He lept onto my Corgi and attacked her while she was sleeping (I've read bad things about this...) a few months ago and has badly bitten the three dogs staying with us 4 or 5 times (leaving deep fang marks). He also attacked and bit the yard man. He came from behind him and latched onto his leg. Luckily the man didn't sue me (honestly I wouldn't have blamed him). He allowed an elderly man to pat him, then stared at him vacanty, and tried to bite. He has days when he's pretty normal, and some days that are awful. The awful days are becoming more frequent. He stares at people in a very predatory way now. I know he isn't sick, he's been to the vet recently and shows no signs of illness. Unfortunately because of my seperation I do not have the money for a behaviorist. He gets lots of exercise, more than he used to. My landlord is my friend but ... you get the idea.

     

    I am terrified euthanasia is my only option. My entire life is upside down and I just can't afford to be sued right now. I constantly worry about what he is doing. I know I can't rehome a dog with bite history.

     

    What do I do?

    • Gold Top Dog
    I'd check him for a tumor or something when dogs are in pain they'll lash out. I know of springers that had a tumor in their jaw area and when they were in pain, they would run full speed into a wall. After several attempts, they would be bleeding.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Maybe he feels the need to "protect" you due to the hard time you are going through after your separation.

    He might be feeling that you can not "lead" the pack and he is "stepping up" to the plate (taking very poor decisions)

    This type of situations also happen when somebody in the family died

    • Gold Top Dog

     I don't hold opinions on when other people should put their animals down, but I would encourage you to think about his quality of life. It sounds like he's not a very happy man. Sad I have no idea why he would be acting so aggressively and unpredictably, but I would be leaning towards a medical problem because it sounds really intense and scary, and at least in your description I couldn't find a reason for him to be acting that way.

    You've got to take this with a grain of salt because I'm going on virtually nothing, but if he were my dog I'd talk to the vet. I'd also try to see if I could identify a pattern in his triggers. It seems in your post that there is no pattern, which is something that really worries me. Penny has gone a bit that way lately and I believe it's because she's old and doesn't always think straight anymore. She doesn't hurt anyone, though. The dog my mother had when Penny was younger sometimes did crazy things and it slowly and inexorably got worse no matter what we did. Every time she went nuts it just meant she would go nuts a little sooner next time. It becomes a habit. We believe that it was all originally triggered by fear and then fuelled by general anxiety about changes in her life, but even when those changes had settled her behaviour was already set and there was no changing it. 

    If you can figure out what triggers an attack I guess you have something you can work on. If not, it gets hard. You have to think about his quality of life, though. It can't be a very nice existence to be feeling like you have to attack everyone all the time. 

    I hope it's something medical.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Beejou

    What do I do?

    I agree with the others. Sounds like the dog may very well be sick. Attacking a sleeping dog? Wow. Also, you are very lucky so far there are no lawsuits against you. That is an awful lot of attacks. If after going to your Vet and there is no way to fix the problem, and you don't want to euthanize the dog, you could try Best Friends Animal Society. They will take ANY dog. The trouble will be getting the dog there. They are located in Utah.

    • Gold Top Dog

    As I read the OP, my first thought was along the same lines as eSpencer's.  Lots of internal turmoil when there is a separation of family, obviously.  He sees you are "weakened" emotionally, so he is trying to take the role (please no offense).  And, at the same time, he is emotionally distraught.  Perhaps when you get stronger and start to heal from the separation, he will too.

    In the meantime, keep him separated from others to keep him from hurting anyone.  And, spend some good 1:1 time with him.  I agree with the vet check to rule out anything medical.

    Good luck and please keep us posted.

    • Gold Top Dog

     First stop - vet.  Make sure that a neurological or physical condition is not causing this (things to consider: seizure activity, hypothyroidism, tick borne illnesses, tumors, etc.)

    Secondly, some of this may be exacerbated by his being behind the fence, constantly being allowed to chase things away (to him, he may feel he is "winning", or at least successful, when the jogger, dog, or bicyclist leaves his field of vision, as he perceives that he has driven them away).  Dogs that run fences often get more aggressive, because each time they are successful, they are being reinforced. Then, the dog or the jogger that doesn't move is in danger of being bitten, since the dog escalates the chase to the bite to enforce his wishes that they go.  To him, they have disobeyed him, and he is out to fix that.  These are dogs that should have solid fencing, not chain link.  Or, they should be contained behind the house, not where they can see passersby.  This behavior is rooted in predatory drive, and it fits with the "look" you say he is giving people or dogs. He needs very intensive obedience training and behavior modification.

    I've had a lot of dogs mourn people, but not escalate into aggression.  While it does happen, in this breed especially, I lean toward the containment issue, especially since you say this did not start right at the point where he lost his other human.  

    Don't be afraid to muzzle your dog if it keeps you from having to euthanize him, or it buys you time without lawsuits to make the decision about his future.  Just acclimate him to the muzzle properly (www.morrco.com).

    If there is no physical problem, and you think it's behavioral, as outlined in the paragraph about predatory/barrier aggressive behavior, then invest in a behaviorist.  Use the Animal Behavior Society website, or IAABC to find one near you.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for the responses everyone. I guess it is possible he's trying to "step up" because of my break up but I don't think so, my fiance never did much of anything with him and I have always been the one to give commands, feed him, etc. He's still very obedient about following sit/down commands and letting me rub his belly etc. which I've read a dominant aggressive dog won't do (assuming there's not much of a stimulus around him)

    Penny hit the nail on the head with "The dog my mother had when Penny was younger sometimes did crazy things and it slowly and inexorably got worse no matter what we did. Every time she went nuts it just meant she would go nuts a little sooner next time. It becomes a habit. "

    Every time he bites or tries to bite he tries to do it a little sooner the next time. It's all pretty unpredictable. Sometimes he's okay with other dogs, sometimes he isn't. Sometimes he's okay with people, sometimes he isn't. And sometimes he isn't okay with people he used to be okay with. My landlord described him as a "ticking time bomb" and really wants me to get him off her property.

    I feel terrible about it but I just do not have the money for a behaviorist. I'm having a hard time making ends meet and it's just something I can't do right now. Can I work with him myself?

    Do you guys think a remote training collar would just make him angrier?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Beejou
    I guess it is possible he's trying to "step up" because of my break up but I don't think so, my fiance never did much of anything with him and I have always been the one to give commands, feed him, etc. He's still very obedient about following sit/down commands and letting me rub his belly etc. which I've read a dominant aggressive dog won't do (assuming there's not much of a stimulus around him)

     

    It does not matter if your dog even met your fiance or not. He could be reacting to what CoBuHe said, your emotional weakness right now. A dominant agressive dog is not the only one who would act this way. Your dog feels your weakness and he will try to make the "pack decisions" while you recover.

    On your dog's mind the type of problem you are going through would not make you able to "lead" the family so he wants to do it  (that does not mean he is good at it either but at least in his mind he is trying). You said that it has been going on even before the split, well maybe you started felling emotionally hurt since then and that's when he realized what he needed to do.

    You'll see that once you recover from all this and go back you your old person he will "give you back" the responsability. In the mean time you have to manage every situation.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I am no longer allowing him in the backyard without me being with him or with the other dogs. Today I took him on a long walk, tapped his shoulder with my foot and gave a stern "NO" when he looked at people in an overly interested way and he stopped the behavior. Then in the backyard he allowed a car to pass the fence (I have an alley behind my house) without chasing or barking. I praised him for that. It's not much but it's better than nothing. He is in a "good mood" today.

    I was thinking about putting a 60 foot run in the yard so he can't actually reach the fence, and working with him on it. Just out of courtesy to my neighbors and their pets who don't want an angry german shepherd snapping at them through chain link. I can't afford to replace the fence but I will either cover it with tarp or attach plywood to it to limit his vision. Is this a good idea?

    Also I forgot to mention he's okay with people who ring the doorbell and I let in through the front door. I have no idea why that method of entry is acceptable and everything else is a threat. Obviously I keep him leashed regardless except for with one of my neighbors, who used to train GSDs in Vietnam and isn't worried about him in the slightest. Roscoe adores him.

    Any ideas on working with him and managing him are greatly appreciated. Again I can't afford a behaviorist but will try anything I can.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Do not use a shock collar on this dog. Never use force or any kind of pressure training on a dog that is transferring aggression. Put a sort "tab" on him so you never even have to grab his collar.

    This is what I call "idiopathic aggression." It's the most dangerous and frustrating kind because it's without a discernible pattern, and typically escalates quickly as the dog learns that aggression releases tension. That's why you can't confront such a dog or push him into deciding between aggression or another way - he'll typically "pick" aggression.

    Low thyroid is a really common cause of this kind of glitchy brain problem. Your first step is to have a FULL thyroid panel run. I hope and pray this is the answer - it's such a simple fix. If there's any Border Collie in your dog, have them send it to Jean Dodds. Border Collies often are symptomatic even when the test comes back "low normal." Low normal is LOW for a BC and requires supplementation. This is probably true of other breeds too, but I happen to know it's true for BCs.

    I'd say about 3/4 of the dogs I've seen like this were in all probability neurologically damaged or suppressed in some way, as in the case of low thyroid dogs.

    Seizure activity also manifests in this way in dogs, particularly males about three to seven years old.  Frankly the way you've described it, this sounds very much like either thyroid or epilepsy. Other signs of epi are "zoning out" even briefly, staring hard (locking eyes), looking at shadows/lights/cracks on the wall or barking at them, fixation with moving objects, and of course classic signs like distressed breathing, ataxia (trouble with balance), twitching or whining. The latter do NOT have to be present, nor do any of the previous, need to be concurrent with aggressive episodes.

    Border Collies are very prone to this form of seizure illness. In rescue, most of the time we diagnose it only after the dog has had a couple of bad bite episodes, sadly.  So unless it's a dog I can place as a working dog, usually we've no choice but euthanasia because it's a liability issue - because epilepsy takes constant monitoring and a commitment to do whatever it takes to avoid episodes.

    But seizure meds are highly effective at reducing the behavior. Once the fog in the brain is cleared, the aggression, if it even hangs on at all, typically settles into a recognizable pattern - resource guarding, fear aggression, reactive behavior (sounds most likely in this case), territorial stuff. This can be addressed normally, with the help of advice or books and lots of patience. But as I said it's oftentrue that the unpleasant behavior goes away entirely.

    A very few dogs simply have a screw loose. It may be that these dogs, too, have a brain disorder - much like humans with schizophrenia, suffering from imaginary tortures and visions of a world that's always "out to get them." We don't have any way, currently, to help such dogs, though there is a big study underway to try to find genetic markers for such diseases (I have a friend working on this project with Dr. Karen Overall, that's why I've got so much blah-blah on this topic [;) ].

    If the thyroid test is a bust, ask your doctor to consider starting your dog on phenobarbitol - before making this request, watch your dog carefully and write down other symptoms that fit in the seizure model. If he's not epileptic, and he's healthy, the pheno will just make him a little dopey. It's worth it to save his life, which is what it's coming down to here. If your doctor refuses, find a doctor who will work with you. You have to be your dog's advocate at this point - it's up to you to save him if you can, or if need be, eventually, release him from his pain if there's no other way.

    Peace and good luck to you and Roscoe. I've been where you are many times and it never gets easier. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I agree with Anne and Corvus. 

    Assuming it's not medical (would be great if it is), I would think this is primarily barrier aggression, which when left unchecked is basically self-rewarding (like Anne says, he barks and chases whatever's on the other side of the fence, it leaves b/c it was going to anyway, but to him that's a win and the behavior is reinforced and continues to escalate).  Personally I would not let him near the fence right now.  I'm not sure I'd use a line either though, if that's what you mean by run.  This sounds like something he sort of developed on his own and even on a line it will find ways of manifesting itself.  Maybe leash him or have him on a line attached to YOU at all times from now on?  On walks I would not correct for hard stares or other unwated behavior but simply turn and walk away.  The danger with correcting or trying to redirect is that you run the risk of waiting too long, the dog has already fixated and is starting to escalate (maybe not visibly but in his mind).  You don't want to train him not to bark at people, you want him to simply not care, if that makes sense.  The thought should never cross his mind.  If you see someone approaching, turn away.  I would get him in a reactive dog class or find a behaviorist so that you can work on approaches and desensitization in a controlled environment, where someone with experience can help "read" his behaviors and know just how far to push in order to keep him setup for success every time.  If he's locking his gaze or starting to react, then at this point I would say he's already taken it too far.

    I also agree with Corvus that if this continues to escalate I would be concerned for his mental state and quality of life, beside the obvious liability and risk to yourself and your other animals.

    I don't know what to make of him feeding off your emotional state.  Personally when my dogs have an issue I don't really care what caused it b/c in the end, that doesn't matter.  What matters is that now there's an issue and it needs to be dealt with.  Maybe that is why he started to escalate, but now that he's at this point, I would not assume he will "get better" when you settle into a new routine and are under less emotional stress. Treat it for what it is, esactly what you see right now.

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    Then, the dog or the jogger that doesn't move is in danger of being bitten, since the dog escalates the chase to the bite to enforce his wishes that they go.  To him, they have disobeyed him, and he is out to fix that. 

     

    Its actually the contrary, once you start moving you become prey. The best thing you need to do when a dog attacks its stay on your ground and dont move. I have been attacked on the street, the last thing i did was running away, i stood there and the dog just made sure i was not a threat and left.

    • Gold Top Dog

    But prey drive and a dog with barrier aggression wanting whatever makes him fearful to leave are two totally different scenarios.  Either way it doesn't really matter WHAT the dog is thinking, whatever it is, the response is dangerous and inappropriate.  There are a gazillion dogs trained in prey drive for the highest levels of sport that are not barrier aggressive and do not bite people and other dogs.  This sounds like a temperament issue, not a drive issue.

    • Gold Top Dog

    It does not matter if it's prey drive, territorial aggression, fear or the dog just didnt like your shirt's color. The worse thing you can do is run away.

    Maybe you are confused because i used the word "prey". Let's say that once you start moving you become "weak" on the dog's eyes, you agreed to give up your personal space to him. If you stand your ground the dog will know that his "tactics" are not working BUT since you are not doing any aggressive moves either then he will realize you are not a threat.