Fear aggression with new puppy- (thedoc617)

 I would not yell at him!! He is just telling her to back off she's in his space and he isnt comfortable. I mean would you let some strange kid come and climb all over you and be up in your face?

Where is his crate? Can he be allowed in your room and the puppy not? Let him have somewhere to retreat to where the puppy isnt allowed. 

When I bring in new dogs/pups or fosters Cheyanne is the only one that will tell them to back off she's had enough,etc. I allow her to do it. She never attacks them or wounds them in anyway. Just a little growl and if that dont work a little snap is all it takes to get some respect around here. It might take the new pup a few days to figure it out but they do figure it out.

 Sounds like the puppy has a little too much freedom too soon.  My rule is that the existing dogs do not have to change their routine to accomodate a new dog.  It's up to me and the new dog to work the new dog into the pack (for example, my puppy is crated while I work but my adult dogs are still free, even if that made my pup throw a fit at first).  So, Lucky should not have to go in his crate when the puppy is out (unless he walks in there on his own), the puppy should be in the crate when it's Lucky's free time.  I allow corrections within reason.  If it keeps happening, then the owner of the offending dog (in this case the puppy NOT your dog!) needs to step in.  I was really lucky in that my adult dogs didn't mind my puppy and put up with a lot of pestering from him.  I agree with Kimberly, your dog is not fear aggressive here but he probably will become fear/dog aggressive if someone yells at him everytime another dog gets in his face.  I would have your roommate setup a "puppy" area so Lucky can have his space.  When Nikon first came home we had a puppy pen for him, setup with food, water, toys, a small kennel, blankets...pretty much everything he needed and much more space than a crate (some people will use a bathroom, but my expen is bigger than my bathroom!).  Until he was reliably potty trained and learned the rules of the house, he was allowed out with the other dogs for several supervised periods each day.

 A space to confine the puppy, as suggested above, is ideal.  Puppies don't need free rein at such a young age, in fact it's better for the puppy too as far as housetraining, chewing, etc.  It sounds like Lucky has already made an association of puppy=yelling=don't like puppy.  Since there are multiple dogs owned by multiple people and no consistent training methods, I would protect Lucky.  This will have the added benefit of the puppy not developing dog to dog problems.  I know it's hard to get everyone on board and people of course tend to look out for their own dogs first but if you could sit everyone down and talk to them about how fear can become aggression, it may help.  If nothing else, it will make your decisions seem less about you and Lucky and more about all the dogs' welfare.  Don't take that the wrong way because of course your dog comes first, that's only normal and right.  Lucky has been through a lot and deserves every opportunity to keep improving and having someone else yell at him because he is fearful of the puppy isn't fair to you or to Lucky.

JackieG

 A space to confine the puppy, as suggested above, is ideal.  Puppies don't need free rein at such a young age, in fact it's better for the puppy too as far as housetraining, chewing, etc.  It sounds like Lucky has already made an association of puppy=yelling=don't like puppy.  Since there are multiple dogs owned by multiple people and no consistent training methods, I would protect Lucky.  This will have the added benefit of the puppy not developing dog to dog problems.  I know it's hard to get everyone on board and people of course tend to look out for their own dogs first but if you could sit everyone down and talk to them about how fear can become aggression, it may help.  If nothing else, it will make your decisions seem less about you and Lucky and more about all the dogs' welfare.  Don't take that the wrong way because of course your dog comes first, that's only normal and right.  Lucky has been through a lot and deserves every opportunity to keep improving and having someone else yell at him because he is fearful of the puppy isn't fair to you or to Lucky.

I agree.  Most adult dogs are pretty tolerant of pups, but if there's a large size difference, or the adult dog is under-socialized, or the puppy is getting to the age where they "run out of puppy license", it's normal for adult dogs to show their mean teeth to get the pup to back off.  Your roomie should be socializing the new puppy with other puppies at class or play groups, but should not *yell* at ANY dog (including his own), even one that is telling his pup off, so long as no one is drawing blood;-)  This is how puppies learn that they aren't the biggest baddest dog on the block, and it's normal behavior.  Don't limit contact, just don't draw attention to it either, and have a place where Lucky can retreat and pup cannot follow (baby gate or plywood with a cut out big enough for Shih, not for Bassett?)

kle1986

I would not yell at him!! He is just telling her to back off she's in his space and he isnt comfortable. I mean would you let some strange kid come and climb all over you and be up in your face?

Maybe not yelling but for sure a voice correction would be needed. The owner should do a voice correction AND remove the dog that is invading the personal space. It's never a good idea to "delegate" discipline because the dog might next time take it too far. The key its to prevent the escalation of the behavior

Liesje

I agree with Kimberly, your dog is not fear aggressive here but he probably will become fear/dog aggressive if someone yells at him everytime another dog gets in his face. 

This is totally flat out wrong. Dogs dont think that way whatsoever. If you are doing a voice correction they will never blame the other dog, they know the correction comes out from the human, his focus is taken away from the other dog and re directed to the human, lowering this way the level of the behavior towards the other dog and preventing a fight. Dogs do not make "3 point connection of events"

spiritdogs

but should not *yell* at ANY dog (including his own), even one that is telling his pup off, so long as no one is drawing blood;-) 

So according to you the ower should not do anything until its time to clean the boold out of the puppy? Like i said before "delegating" discipline to a dog can be dangerous, maybe the puppy didnt get the message (probably most of them do but not 100% of them) and the dog decided that a bigger correction it's needed.

Safety and prevention it's better, i would not wait to see if the puppy got the message. I would do a voice correction to Lucky and remove the puppy away. This way i show Lucky that there is no need to behave that way and that i will take care of the situation in a SAFER way that Lucky might be thinking, showing the puppy at the same time to respect personal space.

BEWARE, every person taking care of their own dog will bring bigger problems in the future by creating different packs inside the house. Each person MUST treat ALL dogs as their own.

[quote user="kle1986"]I would not yell at him!! He is just telling her to back off she's in his space and he isnt comfortable. I mean would you let some strange kid come and climb all over you and be up in your face?

[quote user=espencer] Maybe not yelling but for sure a voice correction would be needed. The owner should do a voice correction AND remove the dog that is invading the personal space. It's never a good idea to "delegate" discipline because the dog might next time take it too far. The key its to prevent the escalation of the behavior [/quote]

Note that I said dogs can handle this as long as there is no real biting going on - dogs do this naturally, and ritualistically, and do not normally need human intervention unless they are acting inappropriately.  It is perfectly normal for an older dog not to want a puppy in their face, and they use their own language to tell the pup that.  No one is saying that it is ok for a dog to hurt another, but I can tell you haven't been around many large play groups that include dogs and pups if you are this worried about an older dog asking a younger one to keep its distance.  If the owner wants to "correct" the pup, it should be done by teaching it "leave it - come", and not by yelling at it, which doesn't really work, and which will upset the older dog, who is already fearful.  Remember, fear and poor association with puppies (i.e. some human yelling) can actually make matters worse by instilling more fear, which can escalate to aggression. 

[quote user="Liesje"] I agree with Kimberly, your dog is not fear aggressive here but he probably will become fear/dog aggressive if someone yells at him everytime another dog gets in his face.

[quote user=espencer] This is totally flat out wrong. Dogs dont think that way whatsoever. If you are doing a voice correction they will never blame the other dog, they know the correction comes out from the human, his focus is taken away from the other dog and re directed to the human, lowering this way the level of the behavior towards the other dog and preventing a fight. Dogs do not make "3 point connection of events" [/quote]

No, it is you who are flat out wrong, and Liesje is right on the money.  Dogs certainly are capable to associate loudness, even if it comes from the human, as only occurring while the other dog is present. 

[quote user="spiritdogs"]but should not *yell* at ANY dog (including his own), even one that is telling his pup off, so long as no one is drawing blood;-)

[quote user=espencer] So according to you the ower should not do anything until its time to clean the boold out of the puppy? Like i said before "delegating" discipline to a dog can be dangerous, maybe the puppy didnt get the message (probably most of them do but not 100% of them) and the dog decided that a bigger correction it's needed.[/quote]

No one is saying that you should let a puppy bully an older dog ad infinitum, just that you are not accomplishing anything by yelling at the pup, and you will probably make the older dog MORE fearful, not less.  The path to any happy canine/human social group is training and conditioning/counter-conditioning, not meaningless sounds or words.

thedoc617

He is very food motivated. I saw once to bring out a treat that is WOW awesome amazing! only when the puppy is out. I tried giving him peanut butter in the room, he wouldn't come near it or me because Sadie was 5 feet away. 

My emphasis, espencer.

To me, the above statement indicates that Lucky has already made an association that the puppy means trouble, probably because he was corrected for defending himself against the puppy that he fears.  He was somewhat fearful when the puppy was introduced but now is so fearful he won't take treats.  The connection seems clear to me.  Further correction to Lucky will only reinforce his fear. 

 Good point, JackieG.  The refusal to take treats is a sign of anxiety, and too close proximity to the "trigger" that creates the anxiety - either the yelling human or the puppy.  What should happen now is that Lucky should be given really, really delectable treats at a distance from the puppy that is less threatening, so that he can change his mental attitude about what the pup predicts for him.  If you can get him to take treats, start at that distance - when the pup is around, Lucky gets fed, and the feeding stops when the pup exits.  This can be done with the puppy's owner facing the pup away from Lucky and feeding the pup some treats, too, for doing his training exercises;-)

One other thing I thought of. You mentioned in another post that this puppy is very clumsy and falls or trips a lot. That may actually sending an vibe to your dog that it is injured or infirm...to many dogs..that is an automatic "leave my area/territory". Not all dogs are sensitive to illness/infirmity vibes but plenty are...anything out of the ordinary can make them very uneasy.

Also...hounds like to sniff a LOT. My hounds have gotten into trouble plenty because of prolonged anal/genital sniffing of other dogs. It IS rude...but they don't mean it to be a dominant gesture, which it can be...but they simply cannot HELP but sniff deep and long at whatever interests them...and they are "doggedly" determined to do so as well!They ARE stubborn and do NOT always take a correction as what it is...but simply and obstacle like a fence or briarpatch to be negotiated past.

Just some crumbs to kind of try and decipher the why of things.

Thanks Anne, I got carried away with the debate and forgot the OP needed some advice and your's is spot on, as usual. 

spiritdogs

but I can tell you haven't been around many large play groups that include dogs and pups if you are this worried about an older dog asking a younger one to keep its distance.

Sure and then you let the dog to get used to be able to ask other dogs, puppies or even worse, kids, to stay away. The dog was just doing what he was always allowed to do and decided that the next time that a kid comes closer its time to correct again. No need to speak about what's next.

JackieG

To me, the above statement indicates that Lucky has already made an association that the puppy means trouble, probably because he was corrected for defending himself against the puppy that he fears.  He was somewhat fearful when the puppy was introduced but now is so fearful he won't take treats.  The connection seems clear to me.  Further correction to Lucky will only reinforce his fear. 

The dog might not even be fearful of the new dog, but the puppy could be so obnoxious, hyper, etc that Lucky feels the need to establish some house rules. Food is not some kind of god for dogs. Lucky might think that yeah food is yummy but right now there are rules that are being broken by the puppy that need to be reinforced. He might not even feel that he needs to reinforce rules but the puppy is so hyper that Lucky might feel that he wont be able to enjoy the food with him being around.

Let's say that the dog is actually fearful, it makes more sense that the dog is afraid that his owner "would start acting like crazy again and yell at me for no apparent reason since i dont speak English. The puppy is being a puppy, but the human is just out of control making her unpredictible" THATS scary. The "puppy issue" is a total different thing that Lucky might try to solve later.

I said that yelling wont accomplish anything, that only contributes to the caos. A voice correction would be enough

Allowing any kind of aggression it's allowing to increase the level of the behavior. Next time when the puppy gets older might think that he just dont take crap from Lucky anymore and will answer back. And all because they were never taught that aggression it's not allowed

And then the dogs fight and here they come, ignorant advices like "well, you will have to separate them from now on and forever.", "Well you will have to re home one of them now", " Well he bit the kid, now euthanize him". I'm not saying that it's the outcome of each and every single situation but if you dont let them to "snap" at each other you might lower the risk to almost 0%

All because people dont know about dog psychology. Talking about setting the dog up for failure.

I will follow Anne's lead here. Been there, done that.

OP you got some great advice from some on this thread...keep us posted!

Sorry, espencer, but I am not going to get on the dog psychology or parroting of Cesar Millan merry go round with you again, so I will not be responding to any more of your posts here.  I think everyone here already knows where the two of us stand in terms of our philosophies.

 Gina, so true about the hounds, being "rude" to other dogs.  That sort of thing happens in other contexts, too, so I'm glad you brought it up.  Some dogs get very testy, for example, with dogs that over-appease, as if they were saying, "Enough already, now get lost!!!"  And, it's often apparent that some dogs simply don't like the play styles of other dogs and tell them to back off (Boxers come to mind).  The herders don't want their view blocked, as another example.  So, breed propensities are important, as are issues of temperament, play style, and social experience.  The dog that warns is much better than the one that just goes ahead with a bite, and, when you think about it, because the dog's mouth is so fast (four times faster than the human hand), if he wanted to bite, he'd land a bite.  The air snap is really a way of NOT having to bite to make your point.