Fear aggression with new puppy- (thedoc617)

I understand your point about stopping Lucky's show of aggression now in order to prevent problems between the dogs in the future. I disagree with your method, in this particular case.  I have corrected dogs for aggressive actions toward other dogs and I'm not saying it's not appropriate in some situations.  I might say "ah, ah" or send the offender to his bed.  

 Lucky is fearful and his aggression is fear based, in my opinion.  This is the worst case to use corrections because this reinforces in the fearful dog the feeling that the puppy (in this case) is the cause of his problems.   Creating the concept in Lucky's mind that the puppy is good will reduce the stress for both dogs and people and they can have a cohesive pack of dogs.  Until that happens, Lucky needs to have no more negative experiences with the puppy, IMO.

JackieG

This is the worst case to use corrections because this reinforces in the fearful dog the feeling that the puppy (in this case) is the cause of his problems. 

Yelling was causing the problem, if instead of "voice correction" we call it "voice re direction" would it be better? No need to yell, i was always referring to what you said, something like "ah ah"

Redirection it's the key, no need to let the dogs to sort it out themselves

Anne, i dont know why you bring Cesar Millan into this thread. Dog psychology is practiced by a lot of behaviorists out there

Okay, thank you all so much for your help. Sadie now is in an ex-pen durring the day when we are at class, and when we cannot watch her (since the living room has tasty things to munch on!) Oh boy does that puppy cry! It took almost an hour and a half to get her to settle down away from us. That is not the point though of this thread! LOL

But, it's interesting what Lucky does, lately. If Sadie is sleeping in the ex-pen or in her bed, he will go up and sniff her, but if she acknowledges him in any way he backs off and gets scared and growls and runs away. What does that mean?

 See, Lucky is VERY VERY food motivated, so it was interesting to see him refuse food. But, when Sadie is in her ex-pen, I tried that technique at a safer distance and he was happy. We will keep trying.

And, we are now letting them pretty much do the pack dynamic thing. (on 30 minute intervals) We had one big incident that actually didn't involve Lucky at all. It involved Oscar, the old man. He is also a hound, a basset mix, and he does not know how to give corrections lightly. Sadie has a couple of puncture wounds (not deep) on her nose. Like Gina said, she was being VERY nosy to parts he did NOT want her sniffing. We plan on keeping them separated for now. Any advice on that?

thank you all for your advice so far!!

thedoc617

But, it's interesting what Lucky does, lately. If Sadie is sleeping in the ex-pen or in her bed, he will go up and sniff her, but if she acknowledges him in any way he backs off and gets scared and growls and runs away. What does that mean?

It means he's curious, but afraid, of this new member of the pack.   I suspect that this will get a bit better, since he is making the effort to investigate her.

thedoc617

 See, Lucky is VERY VERY food motivated, so it was interesting to see him refuse food. But, when Sadie is in her ex-pen, I tried that technique at a safer distance and he was happy. We will keep trying.

That was exactly the right thing to do - keep in mind that you may have to increase the distance between them when Sadie is awake, but the technique is the same.  Lucky sees Sadi e from a distance where he is comfy eating, Lucky gets food, Lucky begins to see Sadie as a predictor of good things for him.

thedoc617

he does not know how to give corrections lightly. Sadie has a couple of puncture wounds (not deep) on her nose. Like Gina said, she was being VERY nosy

This is actually your more severe problem, since Oscar does not have good bite inhibition for some reason.  Deep punctures on a puppy (especially male on female) is very inappropriate behavior if the puppy is less than 4-5 months old, and my sense is that you need to watch this much more carefully than the interaction between Lucky and Sadie.  If Oscar is not neutered already, that would be a good first step. 

If Sadie is sleeping in the ex-pen or in her bed, he will go up and sniff her, but if she acknowledges him in any way he backs off and gets scared and growls and runs away.

Yep, as said above, it means curiosity but fear. My dog is fear aggressive and acts similarly....she is nervous and growly as a dog approaches and passes on a walk, but after it is gone, she sniffs after it and wags her tail, and pulls at the leash to try and get a better smell...sometimes she even gives her high pitched play bark, as opposed to the "getoffmylawnwooooooof!" type she usually has, after they pass. She does get along with some other dogs, and they are the type of dogs that make her feel like she isn't being nosed at or distinctly aknowledged.   If the dog ignores her, or plays in a very laid back way, she is fine. If they try to come nose to nose with her, she flips.

espencer

Safety and prevention it's better, i would not wait to see if the puppy got the message. I would do a voice correction to Lucky and remove the puppy away. This way i show Lucky that there is no need to behave that way and that i will take care of the situation in a SAFER way that Lucky might be thinking, showing the puppy at the same time to respect personal space.

The thing is, Lucky can teach the pup about dog manners better than a human can. 

I think the OP knows Lucky well enough to know whether Lucky's response is likely to escalate and whether they should be as cautious as you recommend.  I don't think it is usually necessary.  If it was, then I don't think a voice correction would be that useful in this scenario.  I think it would be better to step in BEFORE Lucky snaps or growls, so that he learns he can rely on you - his human - to handle the situation and diffuse it before it escalates and puts him under that pressure.  This is good for Lucky, but less good for the pup, to be honest.  IMO, better the pup gets a mild snap from Lucky than grow up with an unrealistic idea of what is OK to do with other dogs, and getting a very rude and possibly very painful and/or expensive awakening later on.... However, the OP has to look out for Lucky first, and if the owner of the pup is getting the pup into scenarios where she can be socialised, then all the better... Lucky should not be her only teacher any how.

espencer

BEWARE, every person taking care of their own dog will bring bigger problems in the future by creating different packs inside the house. Each person MUST treat ALL dogs as their own.

Good luck with that!  

Chuffy

IMO, better the pup gets a mild snap from Lucky than grow up with an unrealistic idea of what is OK to do with other dogs

--->:

espencer

Allowing any kind of aggression it's allowing to increase the level of the behavior. Next time when the puppy gets older might think that he just dont take crap from Lucky anymore and will answer back. And all because they were never taught that aggression it's not allowed

And then the dogs fight and here they come, ignorant advices like "well, you will have to separate them from now on and forever.", "Well you will have to re home one of them now", " Well he bit the kid, now euthanize him". I'm not saying that it's the outcome of each and every single situation but if you dont let them to "snap" at each other you might lower the risk to almost 0%

Chuffy

espencer

BEWARE, every person taking care of their own dog will bring bigger problems in the future by creating different packs inside the house. Each person MUST treat ALL dogs as their own.

 

Good luck with that!  

Good luck with what? Not able to consider all the dogs their own?

espencer

Allowing any kind of aggression it's allowing to increase the level of the behavior.

This is a myth.  All of us - humans dogs, cats, horses, you name it - have the capacity for aggression.  If someone slams a door in your face today and you let it go, it does NOT mean that that person is likely to punch you on the nose next time.  Following this theory to it's logical conclusion leads to to the preposterous notion that any creature that shows aggression will, unless stopped ("corrected";) escalate until they severely injure or maim.  This is just simply not true.  I am reasonably confident that any real student of Psychology would back me up on that. 

I'm with Jackie et al.... Lucky needs to associate the pup with good things AND believe that the human will always step in if needed and that it is VERY unlikely he would need to take the law into his own paws.  For this to be effective though, it has to happen BEFORE he has already taken that step. Perhaps removing the pup after Lucky has responded might even be perceived as a REWARD by the dog!  Something he wants.  If I do this, that happens.  If I get snarky, human comes and sorts it out for me.  See?

espencer

Good luck with what? Not able to consider all the dogs their own?

Yes!  When it comes to the crunch, each person will look our for their own dog first and I doubt you will be able to change that mindset.

Chuffy

espencer

Allowing any kind of aggression it's allowing to increase the level of the behavior.

 

This is a myth.  All of us - humans dogs, cats, horses, you name it - have the capacity for aggression.  If someone slams a door in your face today and you let it go, it does NOT mean that that person is likely to punch you on the nose next time.  Following this theory to it's logical conclusion leads to to the preposterous notion that any creature that shows aggression will, unless stopped ("corrected";) escalate until they severely injure or maim.  This is just simply not true.  I am reasonably confident that any real student of Psychology would back me up on that. 

I'm with Jackie et al.... Lucky needs to associate the pup with good things AND believe that the human will always step in if needed and that it is VERY unlikely he would need to take the law into his own paws.  For this to be effective though, it has to happen BEFORE he has already taken that step. Perhaps removing the pup after Lucky has responded might even be perceived as a REWARD by the dog!  Something he wants.  If I do this, that happens.  If I get snarky, human comes and sorts it out for me.  See?

espencer

Good luck with what? Not able to consider all the dogs their own?

 

Yes!  When it comes to the crunch, each person will look our for their own dog first and I doubt you will be able to change that mindset.

Well, this real student of psychology will back you up, Chuffy.  If it were true that any show of aggression, unless corrected, would escalate, then there would be much more mayhem as a result of road rage.  MOST people who get ticked off while driving are not corrected (since quite a few of them are alone with no one there to correct them), but they still stop at gesturing or swearing, rather than progressing to jumping out of their cars and murdering the other driver.  

spiritdogs

Well, this real student of psychology will back you up, Chuffy.  If it were true that any show of aggression, unless corrected, would escalate, then there would be much more mayhem as a result of road rage.  MOST people who get ticked off while driving are not corrected (since quite a few of them are alone with no one there to correct them), but they still stop at gesturing or swearing, rather than progressing to jumping out of their cars and murdering the other driver.  

Psychology for humans applied to dogs. If a certified dog behaviorist can give his/her opinion against mine then we can discuss the issue 

espencer

I'm not saying that it's the outcome of each and every single situation but if you dont let them to "snap" at each other you might lower the risk to almost 0%

Sometimes i wonder if my whole post it's read.

espencer

If you are doing a voice correction they will never blame the other dog, they know the correction comes out from the human, his focus is taken away from the other dog and re directed to the human, lowering this way the level of the behavior towards the other dog and preventing a fight. Dogs do not make "3 point connection of events"

Hmmmm. Ask Penny about that. "No, Pen, stay in the kitchen.... Penny, no! It is NOT Kivi's fault! Leave him alone!"

It's not a 3 point connection, though, it's a 2 point connection. She never had to stay in the kitchen if she didn't want to before Kivi came, so it's his fault. That has generalised to it being Kivi's fault whenever Penny doesn't get what she wants. She doesn't usually have a go at him when someone has just shouted at her for having a go at him because she's too busy getting herself out before the humans get angrier with her, but I think verbally correcting her/isolating her makes it worse. It happens more often the more she is punished. Ignore it and it still sits around half a dozen times a day some days. Give her some extra loving and attention and it will go down to one or two times a day or less. Fortunately, she isn't trying to hurt him and most of the time it's just noise. He has come to be very wary of her, though. She is completely unpredictable. No one ever knows when she's going to snap at him. It drives me crazy, and I can only say thank goodness Kivi is such an easy-going dog. Even when she really surprises him and makes him yelp he just takes it on the chin.

IMO, I don't think the effects of correcting verbally are that predictable. For example, what's to say Lucky doesn't learn that a verbal correction is actually a good thing because it means the pesky puppy is taken away? What's to say Lucky doesn't start associating pesky puppy with verbal corrections rather than his behaviour to pesky puppy?

I have come to believe that I simply do not have the capacity to teach a dog how to behave around other dogs as well as a dog can teach that. Especially if all I do is verbal corrections. Because my verbal corrections are just not a big enough deterrent to make pup want to stay away from exciting dog. But exciting dog snapping at pup works a whole lot better. And perhaps pup will learn that next time I say "Hey, hold up" pup should take it more slowly.

Also, I have lived in houses where people took care of their respective dogs and that was all. The only problems that came up were when someone took one dog out for a walk and not the other. The other would get upset and bark. Everyone in the house treated the dogs differently anyway. My dog was more vocal and grumbly and people were willing to push matters with her to different degrees. She learnt some people could be safely ignored and some couldn't. The other dog was more compliant and did what he was told no matter who said it. Penny was happier in that household than she has ever been, but only as long as I was there. If I went away and left her in the care of my housemates she would sook and bark all the time.

Edited to fix stupid Safari lack of paragraphing.

espencer

Psychology for humans applied to dogs. If a certified dog behaviorist can give his/her opinion against mine then we can discuss the issue 

There IS no" humn psychology".  There is no dog psychology either.  There is just Psychology.  Anatomically we may be wildly different from dogs.  Our instincts and desires also differ but when it comes down to basic drives, we are not as different as you seem to think.

Chuffy

There IS no" humn psychology".  There is no dog psychology either.  There is just Psychology.  Anatomically we may be wildly different from dogs.  Our instincts and desires also differ but when it comes down to basic drives, we are not as different as you seem to think.

Ok so can i go to a psychologist if my dog starts to be aggressive? Or do you think he will kick me out of his office when i tell him the reason for my visit?

Why should we take the risk of not knowing if this will be one of those times where "the driver actually gets out the car to fight the other driver"? Most of them dont but it happens

espencer

Why should we take the risk of not knowing if this will be one of those times where "the driver actually gets out the car to fight the other driver"? Most of them dont but it happens

There are always people who take things to the extreme and dogs too.  These aren't people or dogs who have the normal inhibitions that prevent physical violence.  What advantage is there to escalating aggression in people or dogs?  Hostage negotiators don't challenge violent people to act even more violently, they try to calm and defuse the tension.  Same thing applies to the situation with the OP's dog.  Why not avoid and defuse rather than try and "force" the dog to accept something fearful that is causing him to become aggressive?  Lucky has fear issues and to ignore that fact is to be willing only to espouse a theory rather than try and help.  Corrections have their place, in my opinion but this situation isn't one of them. 

espencer

spiritdogs

Well, this real student of psychology will back you up, Chuffy.  If it were true that any show of aggression, unless corrected, would escalate, then there would be much more mayhem as a result of road rage.  MOST people who get ticked off while driving are not corrected (since quite a few of them are alone with no one there to correct them), but they still stop at gesturing or swearing, rather than progressing to jumping out of their cars and murdering the other driver.  

Psychology for humans applied to dogs. If a certified dog behaviorist can give his/her opinion against mine then we can discuss the issue 

espencer

I'm not saying that it's the outcome of each and every single situation but if you dont let them to "snap" at each other you might lower the risk to almost 0%

Sometimes i wonder if my whole post it's read.

A certified dog behaviorist will certainly inform you that Chuffy is right in her assessment.  Psychology is the science of mental states and processes of both humans and animals.  We are not so vastly different from animals - both have drives, learn by operant conditioning, and have emotions such as anxiety, fear, and joy.   Read Patricia McConnell - she is a Ph.D. certified behaviorist and talks about this all the time.  Read Karen Overall or Nicholas Dodman or take a seminar with Kathy Sdao.  All behaviorists.  About time you started broadening your horizons beyon CM anyway, dontcha think?  If you want to learn about dog to dog play and interaction, get Barbara Handelman's book, or Trish King's video about multiple dog households, or go to Karen London's seminar on dog play (she's another Ph.D.)   I'm happy if you don't take my word for it - go see the best of the best, and take theirs...