What kind of choke collar

espencer

 Have you ever wonder why the show dogs never really pull or wear any special collar?

I agree that the ideal way to train the dog to walk nicely doesn't involve ANY collar or leash at all, but the statement above is laughably false.  Nikon has three types of show collars, each one for a different type of ring/venue, each one connected "dead" or "live" depending on what the judge is asking the dog to do or what the venue calls for.  In one venue (UKC) he has to gait alongside me, in another (SV/WDA/USA) he MUST gait out in front and PULL.  He has a collar specifically designed to encourage a puppy to pull and drive from the rear.  In one venue he is shown on a "live" ring (choked) and in the other, they must be on a "dead" ring (they wear "choke" collars but they can't actually choke the dog, since the dog needs to be pulling out front).

Some show dogs must pull in certain circumstances, it totally depends on the breed and the venue.  And everyone I know that shows (in ANY venue) uses different collars for show than what they walk their dog in or have the dog wear around the house.

Training show dog puppy to pull: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3606/3359644787_a780707ea0.jpg

I'd be interested in knowing what the techinique is.  Always willing to learn more.  My younger dogs were trained on long lines, lots of talking and an occassional treat, when I remembered the bag.......

Kim_MacMillan

Shimmer didn't need any training with the head halter. On it went, and off for a walk we went. I find that a huge problem, and one that can be prevented, is that most people put it on in the house where there is nothing to distract the dog, and the dog focuses on it. I have had amazing success in just putting it on and going for a walk - heck, it's how most of the humane society dogs learn to wear it and honestly, I've only met one dog in a year of walking dogs there that minded it at all. It's because we get right out for a walk, and there are then more important things to do then worry about the halter.

This makes me think of what I said before - how many pups or dogs who have NEVER worn a collar or lead STRONGLY object to them?!  Yet, how many of our dogs here just get ecstatic at the sight of a collar and lead - purely because it means W-A-L-K?!

I do think there are some situations they shouldn't be used, some dogs they shouldn't be used on and some PEOPLE who shouldn't use them (because they obviously CAN'T use them properly), but I would never say "Oh, a head halter - gosh no, far too inhumane."  If it comes down to it, if someone feels they don't have control over the dog WITHOUT the head halter (as you say, the only thing that gives head control), then is it more inhumane for them to not-walk the dog?  Maybe we wouldn't react like that.  But I bet we all know people who do or would...

Yes, let's leave the discussions of whether or not show dogs pull to those who, umm...show dogs. Because I have a totally different experience as well, similar to Liesje's. Gaci has three collars, and two harnesses, depending on what we do. Shimmer has three as well. Zipper just has one, because he's just perfect. LOL.

Oh yes, but I should mention, I do agree that the best training in terms of obedience happens off-leash. All of Gaci's agility is offleash, most of Shimmer's is, her obedience heeling was taught offleash, and all of the conformation dogs started off offleash until the leash was necessary to shape where to heel, and with what tension.

The tools - well, they are necessary for those times you can't train - aka management, one of the most important, and valuable, things in any dog's life. Because in the real world, we can't train 24/7. Sometimes life doesn't happen how we want it to. Then the management "tools" come in - muzzles, head halters, chokes, prongs, any type of collar really, baby gates, xpens, kennels, closed doors, etc.

This makes me think of what I said before - how many pups or dogs who have NEVER worn a collar or lead STRONGLY object to them?!  Yet, how many of our dogs here just get ecstatic at the sight of a collar and lead - purely because it means W-A-L-K?!

I've never had a puppy "object" to a collar being put on the first time. Some have scratched at them a bit in puzzlement. Dogs only object to leashes if you mis-use them to drag the dog around instead of working on the loose-leash concept on your part. I have attempted to get numerous dogs to "accept" head-halters and when I observed them HIDING rather than wanting to go for a walk I threw them in the garbage. Have never yet seen a dog looking "miserable" in a prong, martingale, choker, harness; only in head-halters. But really, whatever myths you feel comfortable in believing go right ahead. Bottom line if you train properly from day one you don't need any kind of control device except a leash for legal purposes.

mudpuppy

I've never had a puppy "object" to a collar being put on the first time.

Lucky you!  

And no, I don't "drag" the poor critter round by it either.  Some just don't like it cos it feels odd.  The end.

I got Zack when he was 5 months old and had never worn a collar before that.  When I first put a plain nylon buckle collar on  him he HATED it.  Scratched at it, and tried to get it off for weeks.  He adjusted to it eventually.

 Now with Zoe, I tried to a micro prong on her to stop her pulling.  She was ok with it the first couple of times. Then one day, when I pulled out the prong collar to put it on her, she screamed and ran and hid under the couch.  Last time I ever got that thing out. 

 My point is, any tool can be uncomfortable to a dog.  Let's think about this - is it even natural to have anything put around your neck, head or chest, let alone being pulled around by it?

 Bear sounds a bit like Kivi. He gets carsick and he also has a very thick ruff like a little mane. I decided with him that I would get him a harness rather than a collar as I've developed a bit of a hangup about collars. Penny has always hated pressure on her collar and sometimes while walking her she gets it accidentally. For her I switched to a Ruff Wear Web Master harness, which has been a godsend for a small, arthritic dog that doesn't really like to be picked up. I got Kivi one when he stopped growing as well, but had him on a normal walking harness until then. The harness doesn't get tangled in his fur and it also has this handle that is really useful for all sorts of things you don't ever think about until it happens. 

Kivi spent such a small amount of time walking with a leash attached to his flat collar that when one of his harnesses broke one day and we had to walk him on the collar he was really uneasy about it. He took a step away from me at one point, felt the pressure on his neck and started backing up fast towards the traffic. It was scary to see not only how unhappy he was about the collar but how flimsy it seemed compared to a nice, secure harness.

But I guess it comes down to whether Bear pulls a lot or not. I had the luxury of teaching Kivi while he was still small, and he was never really a puller anyway.

Incidentally, Penny has never needed a muzzle in the past, but these days she is old and doesn't have a lot of patience anymore and she can't see or hear very well. She had to be muzzled when having a lump aspirated at the vets last year and it was the first time ever. She coped with it perfectly fine and didn't make another attempt to use her teeth, but I have noticed in general that she is much more likely to snap these days. Sometimes she doesn't know it's me, so it pays to be very careful with her. Older dogs sometimes just don't have the patience and tolerance that younger dogs do. I would consider teaching a dog to accept a muzzle if I had a dog that might kick up a stink about it. My two are extremely accepting, though. Kivi is a master of passive resistance. He becomes a sack of potatoes with a tendency to roll in all the wrong directions when he's not keen on cooperating.

mudpuppy

This makes me think of what I said before - how many pups or dogs who have NEVER worn a collar or lead STRONGLY object to them?!  Yet, how many of our dogs here just get ecstatic at the sight of a collar and lead - purely because it means W-A-L-K?!

I've never had a puppy "object" to a collar being put on the first time. Some have scratched at them a bit in puzzlement. Dogs only object to leashes if you mis-use them to drag the dog around instead of working on the loose-leash concept on your part. I have attempted to get numerous dogs to "accept" head-halters and when I observed them HIDING rather than wanting to go for a walk I threw them in the garbage. Have never yet seen a dog looking "miserable" in a prong, martingale, choker, harness; only in head-halters. But really, whatever myths you feel comfortable in believing go right ahead. Bottom line if you train properly from day one you don't need any kind of control device except a leash for legal purposes.

 Jack was not thrilled with his collar when we first put it on.  It had nothing to do with the leash either.  He did not have a leash on him until a couple weeks after the collar was put on him.  I wanted him to learn to stay near me on his own and introduce the leash slowly.  He was fully adjusted to the collar by the time the leash came into play.  There was no dragging of the puppy, etc.

Honestly, the only myths I see anyone believing here is the idea that what they have experienced with a few dogs is somehow magically true for all of dogdom.  Dogs are individuals--get over it.

A few pics of the dogs "in action" with their head halters.

Very clearly having a great time, not concerned about their halters. No stressed body language at all, ears perked, eyes not dilated, tails at normal tail set, no tension, no panting, just happy dogs doing what they love to do in life.

I've got lots more, but really I don't think I need to post them all. Oh, don't forget the one in my sig.

I agree with you that neither dog looks bothered by the halter, but.... mostly I just want to say WOW they are lovely photos!  Wish I could take 'em like that.  *sigh*  Also, your dogs are so beautiful, it's making me want a schnauzer. (someone stop me someone stop me someone stop me...)

I'm going to agree that ANY tool, be it a prong, and EZ walk or a GL can be uncomfortable for a dog.  While MOST will not object to them, some do, strenuously.  Most folks LOVE turtlenecks.  If I put one on I feel like I'm being choked and literally can't breath.  Love 'em, but can't wear 'em.

Dogs, and people are all different in their likes and dislikes.  We need to make room in our minds for individuality and not look for a one size fits all solution to everything.

Dogs, and people are all different in their likes and dislikes.  We need to make room in our minds for individuality and not look for a one size fits all solution to everything.

agreed. but my history is with "purely postive trainers" who insist all dogs must wear head halters, they are so humane, despite the evidence in front of them of dogs bucking wildly, dogs lying depressed, dogs begging silently to have this torture device removed from their nose. Listen to the dogs. I would try all other devices FIRST before going to a head-halter because the majority of dogs seem to think they are devices of torture. Any trainer who insisted one use this or that device would be an ex-trainer for me these days.

OK, I agree with that.  I saw one of the trainers at Petsmart lead her new classes to the GL's before she ever accessed the dogs.  SHE is supposed to be teaching the owners to train their dogs, not slapping a tool on them without even trying first.  So, I totally agree with you there.

Yes, I can see the elderly or the disabled perhaps needing to continue use of a tool, but I still feel that a properly trained dog SHOULD always be reliable on lead.  My mom is 85 years old and teeny tiny.  She's at least a foot shorter than me so likely under 4 1/2 feet tall now, and pretty physically fragile.  SHE can walk any of my dogs, so long as one of us is with her to provide voice commands.  Mom doesn't issue a command.....such as "settle" she makes it a request "settle??" and that doesn't work with my crew who are used to a very clear direction.  But, that's just my humble opinion.  Perhaps some of the folks who Anne was talking about are the same as my mom and unable to sound firm.