What kind of choke collar

mudpuppy

 I'm actually an advocate of using humane devices, as you know, and these are NOT mentally cruel if the dog is trained correctly to accept the head collar. 

If they are so "humane" why does one have to spend months training the dog to "accept" it? I've seen so many dogs looking so miserable in those things that I cannot agree they are "humane".

Like any tool, different dogs have different reactions and preferances. 

Sally does great with her GL--even a trainer who does not like them has commented on how well she does with it.  She does not go into hang-dog mode, etc.  BTW, it did NOT take months to get her used to it--she took to it quickly.

Jack, on the other hand, detests the GL.  We have gotten him used to it properly and he still dislikes it.  Therefore we use a prong with him.

Some dogs just take well to certain tools.  It is not about emotional buzz words like "cruel," "inhumane," etc, it is about what works with each individual dog/handler pair.  I'm not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp.

I would desensitization processes with a new piece of equipment, whether that was just being in the room with the thing or associating it with rewards for interaction. I've seen where just putting on a corrective collar doesn't have the desired effecct and it was someone who doesn't believe in treat training. And I didn't have the chance to help this dog to begin with and my input on the device (similar to a gentle leader) was not listened to. How could I possibly know anything? The other person has had dogs forever. There's only one way for this particular collar to go on and the other person simply could not believe that was so. My input was to get the dog used to the presence and feel of the collar,which does take some time. Fortunately, the dog was not panicky, he just wanted to chew on the lead.

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mudpuppy

If they are so "humane" why does one have to spend months training the dog to "accept" it? I've seen so many dogs looking so miserable in those things that I cannot agree they are "humane".

You don't have to spend months doing this - my dog learned to wear one in two days.  The reason is that this is an unnatural place for a dog to feel pressure on a continual basis.  Also, a head collar should fit properly.  I decided that the GL did not fit my dog (too close to her eyes), so I elected to use a Snoot Loop instead, and it has the added benefit of being lighter.  There's also the Canny Collar, which does not hook under the chin.  These devices are merely restrictive, but properly used do not cause pain.  The prong, even properly used, does - that's the principle on which it works - the dog relaxes the pressure to make the pain go away.  So, even though the GL might not be for every dog, neither is a prong - yet I see them on fearful or aggressive dogs every day of the week, which is patently opposite of the message you would want to send to either type.  Pain makes dogs more fearful, not less, and it often makes them more aggressive, not less.  BYW, I've seen just as many miserable dogs in chokes and prongs - owners can misuse or go to extremes with any piece of equipment.

 By the way, if you do what I urge everyone to do - train your dog to accept a muzzle - a head collar will never be a really big deal, at least in terms of wearing something on the nose.  Muzzle training is part of raising a safe dog - if he is ever injured, the addition of a muzzle by an ACO or vet will not add stress to an already anxious situation for the dog.

spiritdogs

 By the way, if you do what I urge everyone to do - train your dog to accept a muzzle - a head collar will never be a really big deal, at least in terms of wearing something on the nose.  Muzzle training is part of raising a safe dog - if he is ever injured, the addition of a muzzle by an ACO or vet will not add stress to an already anxious situation for the dog.

I would never recommend this. Sorry.

I've never had to train my dogs to wear a muzzle because with proper communication, socialization, and instruction they don't need one. I see no reason to put my dog through "muzzle desensitization" which would probably be more stressful than using one in a rare emergency.

Leave the poor dog's face, muzzle, and psychie alone unless you have no other choice.

Angelique

spiritdogs

 By the way, if you do what I urge everyone to do - train your dog to accept a muzzle - a head collar will never be a really big deal, at least in terms of wearing something on the nose.  Muzzle training is part of raising a safe dog - if he is ever injured, the addition of a muzzle by an ACO or vet will not add stress to an already anxious situation for the dog.

I would never recommend this. Sorry.

I've never had to train my dogs to wear a muzzle because with proper communication, socialization, and instruction they don't need one. I see no reason to put my dog through "muzzle desensitization" which would probably be more stressful than using one in a rare emergency.

Leave the poor dog's face, muzzle, and psychie alone unless you have no other choice.

You might not always have the luxury of being present in an emergency situation when the people handling your dog have no idea what socialization your dog has had and have no time or interest in "communicating" with it or instructing it--they need to do what they need to do at the time they need to do it.

Dogs often have their mouths messed with--it's part of life as a modern pet.  They *need* to learn to accept it, or their life is far more stressful.  At teaching hospitals and emergency vets, the techs often have to take the dog away from it's owner to do certain procedures and you aren't going to know if they muzzled the dog or not.

Dogs are pretty adaptable, and if the time is taken to teach them properly there should be little or no stress involved.  Jack and Sally get massaged every week.  The therapist massages their gums and areas around their muzzles and faces.  They are free to walk away from her at any time, and they generally choose to stay and get their facial massage.  Just the act of massaging them is teaching them that positive things come from having their faces handled.

IMHO, dogs should be taught to accept people handling all their body parts and should also be taught to accept the fact that sometimes things might be put on their bodies that they're not used to.  To not desensitize the dog because you don't think you'll need to ever muzzle it is like not teaching a young horse to get into a trailer because you don't think you'll ever have to travel with it.

At this point the poor OP is probably shaking her head wondering why she ever bothered to ask.

I don't see much benefit to any tool if you always and forever have to use it.  Be it a prong, choker, GL or EZ Walk harness.  In my simplistic view of training these TOOLS should help you to teach your dog to walk properly.  Once Thor "trained" me, I figured out real quick that I did NOT want to go through that with another dog so I set about finding a way that worked for me and for my dogs with nothing more than a flat collar, a long lead and my voice.  And sometimes a pocket full of treats.  Sometimes not.

Tyler has never been a puller.  But, the first MS Walk I took him to, he wore a martingale lead and we had a long discussion about proper behavior on the way to the walk.  He acted like he'd been walking in huge crowds of people all his life.  And, while I'd always taken pups downtown to walk amongst people, nothing compared to this mob.  And since that day, when I put the martingal lead on him and tell him we're going to work, he is perfection.  But, I have no idea if it's the lead or my words.  Or maybe a combination of the two.  But I can take the skittish, frightened foster pup who came back to me, anywhere, including to mix and mingle with very old people in assisted living.

IMHO, whatever tool you decide to use, have a very short range goal in mind of being able to wean your dog from that tool, and work hard to meet your own goal.

 Well, for the record, my vet loved the idea of every dog learning to wear a muzzle in puppy hood.  She loves the idea of prevention, and as sillysally said, it could be an ACO or a vet handling your dog in an emergency situation - those do not always happen as the result of an owner being irresponsible - your house could catch fire, or someone could run into you on the highway, etc., etc., and if a dog is injured, it will sometimes even bite the person it loves most.  Not only do I train my dogs to wear them, they love their liverwurst producting hardware!  This stuff is never unpleasant for my dogs because it's all done correction-free and with plenty of rewards for them.

I really agree with Glenda that tools should ideally be for short term use, but I do have clients with age-related frailty, disabilities, etc. that make a head halter the only way to go - ever notice how many service dogs wear them?   Some people do come here for suggestions, and over the years I've heard from a lot of them behind the scenes who tell me that they were glad they learned about such devices here, so I guess I'm just going to keep preaching to THAT choir while others preach to theirs...

spiritdogs

and if a dog is injured, it will sometimes even bite the person it loves most.

This is so true.  Even the most good natured dog and even with the healthiest and closest relationship between a dog and a person.... you can never say never.  Extreme pain can do funny things to any creature.  All dogs should be handled extensively and gently from puppyhood, so that they simply accept it as normal and enjoyable.  It's simply a part of the socialisation process.

Who has watched a pup's body language when he wears a COLLAR - a normal, work-a-day, bog standard collar - for the first time ever at 8, 10 or 12 weeks old?  They don't usually look very happy either, but we don't go round saying "oh that's too damaging for his psyche, take it off and never subject him to it again..."  Were it not that a collar is the commonest and simplest way of ID'ng, physically guiding and restraining a dog, or merely attaching him to you.... then it would be pretty unusual for dogs to feel pressure like that on their necks, but we tend to accept that collars are a "must have" for any dog and expect the pup to get over it in time, with kindness, patience and a few treats.

Angelique

I've never had to train my dogs to wear a muzzle because with proper communication, socialization, and instruction they don't need one. I see no reason to put my dog through "muzzle desensitization" which would probably be more stressful than using one in a rare emergency.

Leave the poor dog's face, muzzle, and psychie alone unless you have no other choice.

How fortunate. I agree, too, that we should avoid restrictive equipment if possible but some dogs simply can't handle certain situations and the muzzle is a humane alternative.  Just as I sometimes think even a prong is the humane answer. Also, the point of desensitization is to create less stress. If the dog is getting stressed by the densitization exercise, something is wrong.

Sometims a muzzle can actually make a dog feel more secure.

Rusty, my sweet and loving cocker spainel, had ears from hades.  On a very regular basis I had to brush those ears and often trim them down to size.  He absolutely HATED having his ears touched and one time he put his mouth on my arm.  He did not bite, he did not put the slightest pressure on my skin, and I said NOTHING to him.  But, he was so ashamed of himself that he was almost inconsolable.  This was shortly after I'd recovered from neck surgery so his ears hadn't been tended during that period of time and it was longer than usual.

I got him a muzzle.  The darned thing never fit right and he COULD take it off himself.  But he never did, not until I'd tell him "ok, lets take a break".  Then that muzzle came off in a flash.  He never fussed about my using it, never objected to my putting it on and never tried to take it off without my ok.  He knew he could get it off at anytime he wanted to, but by golly, he seemed to not trust himself when I was messing with his ears, and believe it or not, he seemed to WELCOME the muzzle.  At no time was I concerned that he'd hurt me.  I got the darned thing for HIS peace of mind.  And he must have been 9 or 10 when I started using it.

My youngest son was severely ADHD and a danger to himself.  Shopping with him was torture.  Until I bought him a harness.  Oh, I got all sorts of nasty comments about him being a CHILD and not a dog...children shouldn't be leashed, blah, blah, blah.....Guess what?  The minute that child realized that all the control had been put in MY hands he stopped even trying to dash away from me.  This was not something he could help, he wasn't trying to misbehave, he simply had NO impulse control, like a car without brakes.  He didn't have to have any when he wore his harness.

Anytime I'm going to put Sheba in a high stress situation, the vet, crowds of people, I have her basket muzzle ready for her, or, in the case of the vet, put it on before we go in.   She's reactive, but with the muzzle she's calm.  I sometimes think that she too has no impulse control when she's stressed.  The muzzle lets her relax and enjoy herself since she doesn't have to control herself.  I'm not going to make her stay home when she could go for a walk and enjoy new places, but the bottom line is she DOESN'T enjoy those walks unless she knows her reactivenss isn't going to get her in trouble.

Dogs are a lot smarter and understand more than we give them credit for.  And I agree it's better to teach them to accept a muzzle as youngsters BEFORE the situation is critical.

I admit that one thing I did never teach is to teach the dogs to be comfortable with a muzzle. I was actually talking to my SO the other day about that and commenting that I really need to buy one to have just in case. I know how to use a leash as a muzzle, which would be more important in a case of emergency if you don't have a muzzle, but I think it's an important tool to have.

Now, as for the head halters. I'm not a huge fan of them. But I like them a lot better than most other training tools out there. And they work perfectly for the reasons that I need them.

Shimmer took to hers like a champ. Put it on, and away we went.

Gaci didn't like hers at all at first, which was what caused me to put it away for a year and question how "humane" they were. However, I quickly learned that this response has nothing to do with the fact that it's a halter. She hates "getting dressed", no matter what it is. Whether it's a dog sweater, a harness, her martingale going on over her head, she is just not a "touchy" dog and doesn't like the added "Stuff". She showed the same reaction the first time I put her sweater on her (necessary for spending 6+ hours in an unheated arena) as she did for the head halter. Now that she is used to it, she gives me a pouty face when I first put it on her, the same pouty face she gives me when I put on any piece of equipment or her sweater, then is quite fine about it all.

I only use their halters for specific situations.
1) When we are jogging/running. Each morning I will take a different dog out for one-on-one exercise time. When we do this they wear their halters.
2) Shimmer always wears her to agility class. It has been a very important part of her behaviour modification process, to give perfect head control when necessary. Shimmer doesn't care much in the slightest about it now. We have been moving towards not using a halter there but we are not quite there yet. She even does a lot of off-leash work and still wears the halter, at agility it actually seems to have a calming effect on her, to help her focus. It's basically like her "working" cue.
3) There are certain situations in which Gaci will wear one as well. I can't list them, it's more a situational thing where I might need head control in a given situation.

For things like normal walks, potty breaks, car drives, etc, they wear their normal collars. But there will be certain circumstances the girls will wear their halters, Gaci likely for life, because it's a safety issue. I don't use them for regular training, I don't use them for pulling (although I did when I first moved to the city and everything was so stimulating for them). Zipper never wore one and will never need one, so I don't paint them all with the same brush.

The other thing I have noticed with my two, is that the only time they show their annoyance, is when I initially put it on them. The second we step out the door there is absolutely no stress response. Once they stop "thinking" about it, they totally forget it is on and go about what they are doing, and no longer care about it at all.

I didn't have a good experience with the head halter and I will admit it's mostly due to my impatience.  I don't really see the point of using a tool if it takes weeks just to get the dog desensitized to it.  We tried the head halter with Coke, and I will tell you it DID the job (NO pulling, total control of his head, calm walking) but it kind of took the life right out of him.  He didn't seem to really enjoy the walk or care for it either way.  Instead we did a prong for a while and now DH is walking him on his regular flat collar and I walk him on a martingale (mainly b/c DH walks him alone around the neighborhood, and I walk 2 dogs at a time or take Coke to the pet store to walk around).  He also had an easy walk harness and that worked too, didn't bother him at all, but he was always stepping over the leash and getting tangled.

For what it's worth, I agree that I too don't like how long it takes to desensitize most dogs to head halters. It is a pet peeve of mine, and I approach the use of the head halter differently. Another thing is that I do find a lot of people reinforce the pouty behaviour of dogs wearing head halters, as the dog will react to the person and if the person feels the dog is "stressed" (in most cases the dog is just annoyed, not that stressed.....I have met only a handful of truly "stressed" head halter dogs. Haha, and I live with one of them!) 

But (yeah yeah, the big "B";)......there was no other tool that would do what I needed it to do. It was specifically for head control due to serious behaviour issues, and unfortunately no other tool out there gives you head control. That, and for my purposes it's a good thing that it calmed them down, as that is what they needed. Not shut down, but calmed down. I have witnessed Gaci when she has totally shut down - thankfully it never involved the use of the head halter. If it did it would have been eliminated. If a dog needs that much work to wear a head halter, I'll try to find a different collar first. It's easy enough if it's for pulling or training, however the head halter has some functions that functions specifically in aggression and control.

Shimmer didn't need any training with the head halter. On it went, and off for a walk we went. I find that a huge problem, and one that can be prevented, is that most people put it on in the house where there is nothing to distract the dog, and the dog focuses on it. I have had amazing success in just putting it on and going for a walk - heck, it's how most of the humane society dogs learn to wear it and honestly, I've only met one dog in a year of walking dogs there that minded it at all. It's because we get right out for a walk, and there are then more important things to do then worry about the halter.

The only other population I see fight it much are puppies. But, the reaction I tend to see in puppies is no different than the reaction a lot of puppies get on their first interaction with a buckle collar - rubbing, scratching, trying to get off the strange thing. Last time I checked, nobody called it undue stress or inhumane. It's not uncommon to see a bit of a hissy fit the first time you put any collar on a pup.

 I think because for me, the head halter has a totally different use than for a lot of people - behaviour problems, there is a reason I move to it rather than a choke or a prong. If a dog is fearful, reacting out of fear, even biting out of fear, the absolute last thing I am going to add to the scenario is pain/discomfort.

I think folks know I don't generally "like" head halters, but I also know that it has been a life-saver for some dogs, and for some dogs it's an amazing tool. Realistically, coming from an obedience background, I have seen just as many dogs who are lifeless, robotic, and shut down when trained on chokes and prongs as I have on head halters. It happens with any tool. There are a lot of factors that will determine how a dog will react to any given tool, and even though there are certain tools I don't put a blanket label on any tool, because it's just not black and white.

You really dont need any "special" type of collar. No choke, no prong, no gentle leader, etc. It's all about the technique, you only need a normal collar an know what to do with it. Have you ever wonder why the show dogs never really pull or wear any special collar?