What kind of choke collar

I wouldn't use any choke collar.  A lot of it depends on the dog and your preference.  I use a prong because my dogs prefer them.  I am a klutz with the Easy Walk harness b/c it clips in front (though my dogs don't mind these), and my dogs HATE the gentle leader.  At the same time, I do a lot of off-leash work with the dogs, teaching the right position and paying attention to when I stop and start.  The prong is really more for management so they can still get good walks in while we are doing the other training at home.

I hadn't thought about a prong. I had used it for Kota for a bit when she was getting big so fast and I needed a little help in keeping her under control while we trained. it has been SO many years ago, and we didn't use it very long, I guess I would have to buy another one if I went that way. thanks, Julie

 If you are actually looking for a choke collar, I'd suggest a fursaver for thick haired dogs. 

Like this - http://leerburg.com/Photos/ssfursaver_08.jpg

 I'd also suggest something different, though, if you have a pulling issue.  A prong, as was said above, is a good option.  A head halter is another, although it would take some conditioning before you could actually use it.  I've never really been a fan of harnesses period, including the various no-pull harnesses.  Everyone I've had try them just don't have good luck with them.  I actually had one break on a "client" (was replaced by the company, but that makes you feel kind of stupid), and another person had a cocker spaniel and she just didn't really respond well to it.  Didn't help the pulling much.

 I would consider a device that does not cause pain, but still allows you to walk her without getting your arm pulled out of its socket.  What about an Easy Walk harness?  https://www.premier.com/store/Products.aspx?cid=1&pid=6  You really shouln't use it for when your dog is away from you on a long line, you'd just use it for walks, and it's quite effective.  Just me, but I hate pain, so I can imagine my dogs do, too.  And, don't shy away from the Gentle Leader just because someone else has bad luck with it - just be sure to learn how to acclimate your dog to it slowly, and how to use it properly.  There's a video you can buy when you buy the head collar, if you go that route. I have clients with Great Danes who can walk nicely on one of those - one of them is 75 years old, and his dog weighs over 100 pounds, so he'd probably be on the ground without it;-)

Now is a little late to say Bear is the dog that is so fearful of so many things. I want to do the thing that is the least amount of "argghhh" for her.   J

spiritsmom

Now is a little late to say Bear is the dog that is so fearful of so many things. I want to do the thing that is the least amount of "argghhh" for her.   J

I have no experience with choke collars, so I cannot speak to that, but I would probably stay away from the prong if she is fearful--they tend to be better for more confident dogs.

There are a few things you can try.  There are no-pull harnesses like the Easy Walk and Sporn, and also the various head halters.  With my 2, I use a prong for my lab, as that is what he prefers.  I have tried the Easy walk and Sporn for my pittie, and she quickly learned to pull through both of them.  I currently use a Gentle Leader on her.  If you go the head halter route *please* make sure that you are very educated on how to use the tool and acclimate her to it properly.  Good luck!

 Someone posted this technique  while ago, and it caught my interest..... it might be worth a look!

Silky Leash

Very interesting video. I will have to look into what all the different kinds of things are for leading before I can ask more questions. Thanks!!! J

I'm assuming you need to train the dog to not-pull? you can just put any kind of collar on the dog; that doesn't matter, it's the training that produces a well-mannered dog, not the collar. For a dog with fur the rolled leather buckle collars work nicely. The way to train: you simply never reward the dog by moving forward if the leash is taut. Start out by planning to cover only a few feet per walk in the beginning.

I'm not a big fan of either metal choke chains or gentle leaders. Choke chains are just too tricky for most novice owners to use correctly and many dogs find facial contact devices both insulting and mentally cruel. But some folks do use them and don't have problems.

I would recommend a prong, especially for hairy necked dogs (I recommend harnesses for the little guys, though). Just learn to use a light touch when containing too much excitement or a gentle tug to keep them moving. Keep the leash loose when not instructing or communicating directly with the dog so that you aren't indicating tension or giving them something steady to pull against. The leash should be ralaxed and shortened without letting your dog gain momentum, go all the way to the end of the leash, and self-correct too abruptly. Communicate with a bump or tug of the leash before they escalate.

I don't use the stopping method myself as it lacks enough communication.

I've found there's no need to stop forward momentum if the dog pulls a bit. Keeping moving and not making a big deal out of distractions works great. You should see a difference on the very first walk.

One way to not break focus by letting the dog make you stop, is to simply change directions and make turns either towards or away from the dog when they start to pull, or give a slight tug to communicate that pulling is not appropriate.

Direct communication of what you want works better than just stopping and hoping the dog will guess what is expected eventually.

Dogs are a lot smarter, willing to comply, and more capable of learning through social communication than a lot of folks give them credit for. You should be seen by them as more than just a part of their environment or a tree they are tethered to, IMO. 

You are their friend and leader who is there to teach them which behaviors are and are not appropriate.

Good luck and let us know how things are going!

many dogs find facial contact devices both insulting and mentally cruel

Probably because most novice handlers don't use them correctly either.  I'm actually an advocate of using humane devices, as you know, and these are NOT mentally cruel if the dog is trained correctly to accept the head collar.  Most people do not do this correctly or spend enough time on it.  Rather, they expect the dog to acclimate in a day - sometimes that isn't how it goes.  But, I have found that when you pair this, or any, device with liverwurst or beef in copious quantities in exchange first for a sniff at the thing, then for the dog reaching in the thing to take the treat, etc. etc. that you have far better luck with them than is comonly thought by those who hear the "horror stories" from those who didn't do this correctly but claim to.  

Stopping IS direct communication.  It tells the dog that they will not be reinforced or rewarded for pulling.  The reason this doesn't work with many dogs is that the owner gives in because it's just too time consuming and frustrating to be consistent.  So, as with many other behaviors, the dog is actually being intermittently reinforced for pulling, which makes the pulling behavior even more entrenched.  So, you either train it or you don't, but if you fart around trying this and that, and never "get" that the secret is: don't reinforce what you don't want the dog to do - reinforce behavior you do want the dog to do, then you will always have a pulling dog, and maybe a lot of excuses in your arsenal.

 I'm actually an advocate of using humane devices, as you know, and these are NOT mentally cruel if the dog is trained correctly to accept the head collar. 

If they are so "humane" why does one have to spend months training the dog to "accept" it? I've seen so many dogs looking so miserable in those things that I cannot agree they are "humane".

I wouldn't suggest a prong unless someone has already messed up and taught the dog to pull hard/lunge wildly on the leash. If you are consistent from day one with never letting the dog drag you around you don't need devices. Chokers should never be used, they have been shown over and over to cause permanent neck damage in dogs. Unsafe inhumane devices.

Regardless of what is used, it is simply a tool to make training easier.

I'm not sure that it's always a case of the owner messing up.  Sometimes life gets in the way of our best intentions, or we change what we thought was the best course of action.  When I broke down and resorted to a prong for Thor he was in that ugly teenage phase, headstrong, physically stronger than me and something had to work or he simply wasn't going to get walks.  Stopping, making like a tree, simply did not work with Thor.  He would literally pull me off my feet and drag me behind him.  This, when I tried looping the lead around my body so that I had a litle more power behind it.  Didn't matter.  But, Thor taught me a lot and subsequent dogs have been better trained from the get go.

With Tyler, when he is on a regular lead he tends to be a dog.  However, if I put a martingale lead on him, he knows that he's in "work" mode and is letter perfect.  Sometimes a tool can make a huge difference in demeanor and behavior.  Tyler isn't "bad" on any lead, but when I put the "working" lead on him, he's all business.  It's not ok for him to act like a "dog" when we are visiting folks who are 80 plus years old.  And, I conceed that this might be training, because my expectations of my dogs are not as high as those of others.  I consider the walk to be FOR them and so long as they are being polite, I don't care if they wander a bit or do some sniffing.  And, before we enter the facility, when I put that lead on I remind Tyler that its time to work and that he has to be extra good, extra polite and extra gentle around the old people.  They understand far more than we think they do.

If you opt for a prong, be sure to place it where the regular collar would go.  High up on the neck maximizes discomfort.  Keep a short lead, but not tense, and remind your dog before there is any tension on the prong.  The goal is not to hurt your dog, but simply to reinforce your wishes in the most gentle manner possible.  And really, set your own goal of being able to ditch the prong in a specified amount of time.  With Thor he wanted to wear his jewelry LONG after I stopped using the darned thing

I will agree that the very most important tool at your disposal is your voice.  TALK to her and talk to her a lot.  Not just when she's doing something wrong, but also when she's doing something RIGHT.  I'm sure folks around here think that I'm a crazy lady because I'm constantly chatting with my dogs, constantly pointing out the stuff that they might want to chase IF I didn't see it first.  And, if she's fearful, I'd really suggest a nicely padded martingale lead or collar as a starting point.

mudpuppy

 I'm actually an advocate of using humane devices, as you know, and these are NOT mentally cruel if the dog is trained correctly to accept the head collar. 

If they are so "humane" why does one have to spend months training the dog to "accept" it? I've seen so many dogs looking so miserable in those things that I cannot agree they are "humane".

Amen to that.

Amazing how when it comes to these nasty devices all knowledge of reading canine body language flies out the window. The same folks who point at other trainers and scream "shut-down" and "learned helplessness" need to re-examine their own practices before pointing fingers.

I know of no other tool which causes so much stress and mental anguish simply by putting it on. Sure doesn't seem like a "positive" tool to me. But Jean Donaldson is paid well for promoting them to her followers and Premier gives kickback donations to the behaviorist organizations who also promote them, so...

But if your dog is one of the few who has no such reaction to this device, you are certainly free to use it as long as you don't whip their head around and wrench their neck in the process.