What would you do?

corvus

My point is, despite the fact that he would never choose to strike back anyway, he would choose to run, but triggering that flight response and not removing the stimulus that triggered it does not mean that he becomes helpless, or that next time I come near him he will be scared of me. Next time is next time and a whole new set of circumstances.

Two thoughts in response to this.

If each time is a set of disparate or non-linked circumstances and, as you assume, has no connection to the dog and his memory, what is there to assume that he will outgrow his response? With no memory key or link in the mind, the scene is bound to repeat every time, though you kind of answer it in the following paragraph, that given enough time the dog could identify your approach with a feeling of terror because, while dogs "live in the moment," they do have memory and can be conditioned, good or bad.

Secondly, the response can vary in the dog. Your dog is likely to run. The Jindo was likely to take a chunk out of your hide. And the Malamute did take a chunk out of CM. Even then, though, the Mal was holding back because he could have done way more damage than he did.

And, to be fair, mathematical statistical, even, some creatures may resolve an issue through the flooding experience. Many won't and I don't think you would personally use it a lot because of your experience and understanding of Kit and Kivi. I think MP's point is that, given the chance, one should approach such a dog as you approach Kit. Sure, there will be pressure on the animal but you control how much and which direction.

One should also note that the Jindo was not cured by the flooding incident. He twirled until exhausted. It has been described as an extinction burst and that may be fair but I think the dog was just exhausted. Real rehab came about with the owners applying a consistent set of conditions that never vary. This, I think, gave the dog something to latch onto as order and safety in his world, which is opposite the chaos of the initial meeting.

When I read the part about the birds, I was reminded of my experiences with bullies. I'm not calling you a bully. But the effect of being pinned down and helpless is not, by itself, a true calm. In 6th grade, I was in a fight with a guy who was a few inches taller than me and outweighed me by quite a bit. He had me literally pinned on the ground with my face in the grass, which I was allergic to. I started to have an allergy attack and I gave up. And he let me go. But I did not follow his lead. I had found a way to live another day and get away. And when I started studying Kenpo Karate in 1977, let's just say that I've never lost another fight since then. So, the flooding experience didn't rehab me to follow his lead. Our dealings with each other were more distant after that but I did not start magically liking him after that and there was always the fear that it could happen again, until learning how to fight.

ron2

I was reminded of my experiences with bullies. I'm not calling you a bully. But the effect of being pinned down and helpless is not, by itself, a true calm. In 6th grade, I was in a fight with a guy who was a few inches taller than me and outweighed me by quite a bit. He had me literally pinned on the ground with my face in the grass, which I was allergic to. I started to have an allergy attack and I gave up. And he let me go. But I did not follow his lead. I had found a way to live another day and get away. And when I started studying Kenpo Karate in 1977, let's just say that I've never lost another fight since then. So, the flooding experience didn't rehab me to follow his lead. Our dealings with each other were more distant after that but I did not start magically liking him after that and there was always the fear that it could happen again, until learning how to fight.

Ron,

Your experience with this human bully (and from what I've read about your treatment at the hands of your stepfather) was unfortunate. These brutes had malice and cruelty in their hearts and were doing this to hurt you. These things do leave marks both inside and outside.

I'm sorry you had to go though this.

I got into a fight with a bully at the barn where I kept my horse when I was 15. One tough little chick with quite a reputation. She was beating her horse in the face with the reins (as she'd done before) and when I told her to stop she followed me through the barn and threatened me. When I told her to get out of my face, she said "Make me!". Sooo, we ended up rolling around on the floor until I got her by in a leg-lock, held her by he wrists and said "Do you give?". She said "Yes", I let her go, and dropped the incedent. The next day when I saw her at the barn, I said "Hello" first, and we carried on in a civil manner from that day forward. But she never beat her horse (at least around me) or became abusive towards me again.

Just thought I'd share that.

I think what you have said is fair, Ron, I just wanted to point out that there is a time I would hold on rather than letting go if I had triggered a response like that seen with the Jindo. I do think it's stupid to trigger a response in the first place and I would never do it intentionally, but we all make mistakes in judgement and I know perhaps better than some who work with dogs that it's hard not to make mistakes with a touchy animal, at least in the beginning when you are still learning the animal. I triggered Kit just last night. I have no idea why feeding him resulted in him charging up and down his cage last night when normally it results in him hopping over to say hi and I didn't do anything different that I am aware of, but he was jumpy and sometimes there's not much you can do about that.

I don't think that a bird going calm in your hands is a good thing except that it means you don't get bitten, clawed, or accidentally let the bird go in a car or something stupid like that. It is better for the bird than struggling because it conserves energy and as long as the bird is still panic automatically recedes and the bird doesn't have a heart attack. I have had one bird almost die in my hands after getting badly caught up in a mist net and taking a long time to get out again. All the twisting and turning combined with some damaged feathers and a bleeding wing and the heat was almost too much for it. IME, that only happens with particularly delicaate birds when you are handling the bird badly, as I was at the time because I was trying to get it free as quickly as possible. Repeated handling is also dangerous, I think. I have seen birds shut down and go so still during handling that you have to wake them up at the end or they will sit there on the ground barely blinking, waiting to be eaten.

I will repeat that I think you do have to know when to bail. I didn't waste time last night sitting in Kit's cage waiting for him to come around so I could give him something tasty. He wasn't in the mood and wanted me to leave him alone, so I did. You really have to be aware of how far you can safely push an animal and know that there's a point where it's better if you give in and let them have their way.  

I agree and can see the value of bringing in the comparison of Kit. Because some dogs wil be as timid or fragile in their psyche as Kit and some will be as more in charge, such as Penny.

Angelique

The next day when I saw her at the barn, I said "Hello" first, and we carried on in a civil manner from that day forward. But she never beat her horse (at least around me) or became abusive towards me again.

Just thought I'd share that.

I appreciate that and I've had arguments with others and we get along fine afterwards, the other person being the type that will mow you over until you stand up to them. But the effect of being pinned at the time produced a helplessness, not a conversion to that guy's way of thinking. And my reponse to that and other altercations was to learn how to fight better. A couple of fights in 8th grade and I had sent the other guys flying. One, in particular, I sent flying across the room, taking out a few desks and a portable blackboard. I got into trouble for that one.

While we can separate human from animal, that works both ways. Just because a human can recover or later rationalize about the flooding situation and come to grips with it, doesn't mean that a dog can do it. That is, because dogs and humans are different in some ways means that a dog being flooded or restrained as such is not responding to it in the same way you did to the horse barn bully. Sometimes, a dog will respond in a rehabbed way, but not always. As animals, we share certain base responses but we may conceptualize them differently. Nevertheless, I do see instances where a dog responds similarly to humans. For example, in most breeds, the males will scuffle once, maybe twice, settle who is who, and be fine forever after that. Then there are some breeds who don't care about pack status or pecking order. They simply aim to be the one left breathing.