What would you do?

ron2

So, I'm wondering what your objection to my initial suggestion of dropping the leash was.

I didn't object.  It's just not what I would do again.  I know Willow enough to be able to somewhat deal with her aggression.  But, if it had been a strange dog and I had no way at all to control the dog without the leash, I wouldn't drop it--at least intentionally.  It gave my own dog way too much power, it didn't change her state of mind for the better.  I can only imagine what might happen to a dog that didn't have a relationship with  me or at least enough of one--sort of along the lines of what Anne said, I wouldn't want to have to bend down to grab a leash back if a dog was acting badly. 

willowchow

I can only imagine what might happen to a dog that didn't have a relationship with  me or at least enough of one--sort of along the lines of what Anne said, I wouldn't want to have to bend down to grab a leash back if a dog was acting badly. 

I like what she said, too, even if that gets me a reputation. And I think it's great that you prefer the advice of a pro trainer over someone not as educated or an amateur.

I am wondering if anyone here would hang on to the leash, regardless of the animal's frenzy. As I said before, I would much rather use the calmest means available and I'm trying to think of a reason or circumstance where I would just hold onto the leash and let the dog whirl himself out of breath and steam. I don't think dogs get the same benefit from, say, primal scream therapy that humans thought we did. So, if the dog has worn himself out at the end of the leash and lies down, panting, I don't think he has worked through his issues, so to speak.

And I don't think I'm saying anything you don't know or haven't thought of when I say that you have done extraordinary things with a dog that, in just about any other circumstance, would have been in dire straits. And it kind of proves the point that just hanging onto the leash would not have solved the immediate problem. But regrouping and stepping on the leash and slowly advancing did help. A decidedly less confrontational approach.

I suppose a scene where dropping the leash was simply not an option and no tranq meds with me, I would try to minimize bite risk but I still haven't solved anything.

ron2

I suppose a scene where dropping the leash was simply not an option and no tranq meds with me, I would try to minimize bite risk but I still haven't solved anything.

And if you have ever been in this situation with a dog you don't know, in a place where dropping the leash is not an option, then not getting bitten is sometimes the best you can do.  When you have less than seconds to decide how to keep safe while controlling a dog who wants nothing more than to escape you, you do what you must. It has solved the problem of not being bit and not allowing a dog to escape when it would be dangerous. Doing it as some sort of training is just stupid, IMO. 

ETA: If the Vet tech had hung on to Bobbi's lead, even if it meant choking her, Julie might be dealing with an even more fearful dog, but at least Bobbi would be safe.

Jackie makes an excellent point.  I wasn't thinking in terms of "training" at those moments.  I was basically thinking of how do I get out of this the least messed up. 

Afterwards, when I knew it was coming, I would block her with the handle of the flexi when she started that.  But, this is just my personal way of dealing with this particular dog.  And, again, agreeing with Anne, it would depend on that dog in that situation what you could do. 

But, definately, if you were suddenly attacked the "survival" of the situation would come first and then training methods would be later on. 

 And, as far as the CM episode you mentioned with the Jindu dog.  I was uncomfortable with how winded the dog got too.  Was it the best method?  I don't know.  But, I do know that in reality most "positive" trainers most likely wouldn't have worked much with him.  I had three who were not eager to help Willow myself. 

Jackie's point is well taken, because it's very hard to "train" a dog whose limbic system has basically taken over and is in fight or flight mode.  It's prudent to keep safe at that moment, and allow the dog to relax before attempting any educational techniques.  The idea that you have to "correct" the dog right at that moment is not true.  Start at the beginning, not at the height of frenzy.  Ever try to reason with an angry drunk???

Dogs are just animals, and a crazy, fearful, aggressive dog is just a wild animal. I would deal with it the way I would deal with any animal that doesn't like people, which is practically every animal I ever lay hands on. God bless pet dogs!

If I wanted to get close to it I'd fall back on classical conditioning and keeping well out of its range and gradually building up its trust in me, like other people have suggested. In my line of work, if you think you might get bitten bad enough that you would react automatically, you wear protection. I can tell you from experience, gliders are small, but they are wriggly and when they bite it REALLY hurts if you don't have gloves on. They have teeth designed to cut into living hardwood.  So personal protection is paramount. Having said that, it's hard to protect your whole body. That's the point you use a barrier. Preferably one they can see you through. That's how we would tame cows when they came to us when I was in high school. Put them in a crush and start brushing them. Easy does it. Try not to get kicked through the rails.

I can imagine a time that I would hold onto the leash while the dog whirled around crazy like. If I had misjudged and got myself into that situation, I would hold on until it was over. I would look away and mumur soothing noises. I wouldn't let it go because in my mind once you've taken that step and triggered something, you need to be there to make sure the animal doesn't hurt themselves. Sometimes if you didn't trigger it too badly they come around quite quickly, which is better than running off and hiding and then having to be dragged or herded out. Actually, IME, if you can grab the animal and physically restrain them they come around very quickly. You have to restrain them tight enough that they can't get at you and can't wriggle much, though.

Kit goes into these flight or fight modes all the time. Usually, I can wait it out and he will calm and we can gently start again. I have to turn away from him, though. Once or twice, it's been so bad that just being there is making it worse. I think in these situations you need to know when to bail. A hare crashing through blinds into windows and literally hitting the roof is not something that is going to get better with you in the room. Incidentally, I was NOT the one that caused that response. Turn around to find someone reaching a hand in to pat the boy in his cage and my insides turned to ice. I really should have warned the person, but thought it was obvious. Anyway, Kit is the flightiest creature I have ever met and he's only gone so far that I had to leave about 3 or 4 times. Once you take that step and push them over the edge I reckon it becomes a flooding experience and you are best served trying to wait it out because hopefully it will occur to the animal eventually that nothing bad has happened yet.

Best to avoid triggering at all, though. 

ok, presuming you KNOW the dog you are supposed to be helping is likely to bite you if you try to do much of anything. Why would you even approach the dog or put a leash on it? use wild-animal gentling techniques. Stand far away not looking at the animal and toss a treat at random. Do this day after day. Bring the animal it's daily feed and just put it down and move away. Wait for the animal to approach you. Be totally non-confrontational. Be non-threatening. Gentle, slow work. Get the animal to trust you. If it's an emergency of some kind and you have to move or control the animal use a tranq gun or a catch pole. People do this all the time. What CM did to that Jindo, which did endanger him, was unreasonable, unnecessary, and frankly stupid and cruel.

Now if you have no idea the dog might bite you and you're holding his leash and suddenly he attacks you that's an entirely different story. There it's survival, manage the situation, get out unharmed as fast as you can; you don't stand there choking the dog until you can alpha-roll him cause he's half-dead. You don't expect the animal to learn anything in this scenario. I personally would have probably kicked the dog away and gotten a barrier between me and him. But I'm pretty sure CM and most dog trainers get heavily briefed before going in, so my previous comments stand.

And I would approach as you or SD would. With gentling methods, as one treats a wild animal. For example, I wouldn't try and pin a gray wolf. In fact, the last thing I would think of doing is just hanging on the leash and letting the dog twirl around in a manner reminiscent of a flying machine with rotor blades orthogonal to each other. I know I can't use the other word because people might get the wrong idea from the use of one word and therefore get me red ink for being inflammatory. And not because they use the technique themselves but in defense of someone else who does.

Nevertheless, the question was asked. And we have answered. I've even upped the stakes to see if there was a reason or situation that any of us would just hang onto the leash in a manner similar to the Jindo or the Malamute. In either case, the dog is overmatched or overpowered, essentially being in a situation where there is no choice or option to be nice but aggressed until giving up. When faced with a superior creature that can overpower or outlast, an animal sometimes learns to do nothing in fear of what might happen. Learned helplessness. Or the animal has developed another choice. Wait patiently for the right opportunity and strike back and, if possible, get away. A ticking time bomb.

Judging from the way everyone has responded so far, there was no reason for the actions taken with the Jindo or the Malamute, save that it made for dramatic t.v. So, an animal suffers for ratings. Or, so it would seem. I could be wrong. We haven't had a response from anyone who would just hang on, like in the show. Wisely, most people don't want to get bit. Nor do we want to accidently reward the bite by surrendering. So, better to not let the bite happen. Which means approaching and treating in a way that does not trigger the dog into fight or flight mode, where a bite can be likely.

Sure there were reasons for the action taken in the episode with the Jindo. The dog was attacking his owners everytime they tried to restrain him and get him to lay down inside of the house. The owners were experienced in rehab, but this dog was dominant and violent about it.

The owners have posted on various sites including CM's NGC blog about how this dog has changed, the fact that Cesar did not hurt the dog, and that they are so happy with this dog which can now be handled safely, that they kept him as their own.

The results (A live, happy, balanced dog who is a safe, stable member of society and welcomed anywhere.) speak for themselves.

Have I ever restrained a violent, dominant dog to get it to calm down and teach it to accept handling? Yes. One time with a very messed-up boxer. In this situation it wasn't about putting a lot pressure on the dog, just removing his ability to bite me, and then gently laying him on his side until his extiction burst was over and he relaxed. This was over a year ago.

Owner and dog are both happy and doing fine. The results (A live, happy, balanced dog who is a safe, stable member of society and welcomed anywhere) speak for themselves.

Should everyone do this? No. Hire a professional and be careful who you hire. This kind of handling takes a special touch and "feel" for the dog's mental state.

Unfortunately, many people cannot separate discipline and/or physical touch/restraint from anger and cruelty in their choice of handling methods and philosophies. This includes both JQP and canine professionals and ranges the entire spectrum of extremes from no discipline on one end to angry rough handling on the other.

Balance, good word.

Angelique

Should everyone do this? No. Hire a professional and be careful who you hire. This kind of handling takes a special touch and "feel" for the dog's mental state.

I think this is really true.  I know personally I wouldn't have the physical strength needed to do it anyway.  But, I wouldn't be comfortable with my ability to know if what I was seeing was normal extinction burst or exhaustion-the dogs ready to have a heart attack.

If it was a dog I loved, while I think the method can work, I'm not sure I'd ever, ever trust anyone enough to know what they were doing either. 

I mean, while I was watching that episode, I thought the dog was going thru a lot of stress--regardless of whether the method was working--and wondered what if he wasn't in the best of health? 

Talking of balance, I'm glad you posted, to at least offer a view from someone who would do this. And thanks for sharing your experience.

willowchow

I mean, while I was watching that episode, I thought the dog was going thru a lot of stress--regardless of whether the method was working--and wondered what if he wasn't in the best of health? 

Your instincts are good.  That is always the first question to ask when a dog is aggressive - is there a physical cause?  It's only when you rule that that out that you can honestly attribute the shenanigans to behavior.  

Angelique

Sure there were reasons for the action taken in the episode with the Jindo.

One other thought on this, though. The show is not filmed as the people call CM. There is usually a lead time of a day or two, setting up cameras, signing releases, getting CM a car, whatever. Point being, other methods could have been used rather than to wait for "lights! camera! action! Cue the frothing Jindo! Fade, camera one ..."

ron2

In either case, the dog is overmatched or overpowered, essentially being in a situation where there is no choice or option to be nice but aggressed until giving up. When faced with a superior creature that can overpower or outlast, an animal sometimes learns to do nothing in fear of what might happen. Learned helplessness. Or the animal has developed another choice. Wait patiently for the right opportunity and strike back and, if possible, get away. A ticking time bomb.

I disagree with this somewhat. IME, an animal can cope with extreme stress better than this and will often suddenly "come to" and start thinking again. At that point they usually realise they are just wasting their energy and become calm. I think this happens a lot faster if you grab the animal and hold them very tightly so they can't spin around and get that illusion of achieving something to goad them on. I honestly do not believe they go calm through fear of what might happen. I think they go calm because there's little point throwing yourself around if you are not getting anywhere. In Kit's case, he goes calm because he anticipated something bad would happen and half a minute down the track it still hasn't happened and nothing else has changed. His brain kicks in again and he slows down and stops, preferably somewhere that feels marginally more safe. I trigger Kit often and it has not turned him into a ticking timebomb. Some days he is just touchy and some days he is not. Whether he goes mental or not is mostly independent of any other time he has gone mental or not. Usually. Unless something really bad has happened lately and put him on edge. My point is, despite the fact that he would never choose to strike back anyway, he would choose to run, but triggering that flight response and not removing the stimulus that triggered it does not mean that he becomes helpless, or that next time I come near him he will be scared of me. Next time is next time and a whole new set of circumstances.

I have had wild birds in the hand that will struggle and bite and claw, but if you hold them firmly enough they soon settle and will often accept handling with minimal fussing until you let them go again. They get to a point where you can see in their eyes that they are no longer terrified, but are just a tiny bit curious about why they are still alive. They become calm and usually remain that way. Otherwise they can die of a heart attack, and that goes for any animal. They must become calm if the scary thing doesn't go away or the stress will overload their bodies.

Having said all that, there is the very real possibility that an animal that doesn't calm will have a heart attack and die. I don't know if this happens with dogs, but it does happen with other animals. On top of that, if you consistently trigger an animal they will soon come to associate you with being terrified and you won't be able to work with them at all. In fact, with many fearful animals if you trigger them before you have spent some time building their trust in you they will never trust you.

So yes, I agree that it's best not to trigger them at all, but no, I don't agree that holding onto a dog's leash while it is freaking out will necessarily do it more harm than if you were stupid enough to trigger the dog in the first place and let it run away instead. In fact, I think it is more likely to do good than harm. I would still be trying to catch the dog and hold it, though, and I would still say just don't deliberately trigger it in the first place.
 

The Jindo had bitten a dominance trainer 4 times. A positive trainer recommended that the Jindo be euthanized. Obviously both were wrong.