What would you do?

LOL!  I can't believe that you remember what a hard time I had weaning Thor off that "necklace".  I didn't USE the darned thing, but he thought he needed to WEAR it regardless for just the longest time!

When I'm working with fosters, or rescues that I'm not sure of, I approach slowly and with the same type of methods you use...the non frontal approach and so forth.  When working with a dog who is known to be or is suspected to have aggression, well, I make darned sure that something non-threatening, but solid is available for me to insert between me and the dog should the need arise.  Not being a professional anything I try not to work with dogs who have a real potential to be dangerous, but sometimes I do take the "iffy" ones.

I don't believe I'm unusual in having the ability, but might be a little unusual in actually tapping into and using it....but my instincts (my gut) are pretty sharp and I tend to have a forewarning 99.9 % if the time when something is up.  I trust my gut and when I listen to it, I can avoid a lot of situations.

Interestingly, that rottie who decided to take a chunk out of my leg......I had a "tingle" seconds before the teeth sunk in.  Had I paid attention to the tingle and the little voice that said "get your butt in the car and shut the door" I wouldn't have a really ugly couple of scars on my leg.

glenmar

well, I make darned sure that something non-threatening, but solid is available for me to insert between me and the dog should the need arise.

Yes, this is what I do/did.  Willow has "attacked" me two or three times on walks/hikes because she was at one time before she got sick getting really bad play aggression.  I had to leave a trail once because she bit thru several layers causing me to bleed. 

Then, I accidentally figured out that if I just put the handle to her flexi near her mouth to block her, she'll stop because she doesn't like that it's hard. 

 I have always found that your first introduction to a fearful or aggressive dog is very important.  The object is NOT to trigger aggression, the object is to have the dog be under the aggression threshold.  The beauty of clicker training is that you can use reinforcements that aren't food, and you can work the dog in a muzzle (Brenda Aloff is so good at that - she's a squeeze cheese master LOL), and you can avoid physical correction, which only incites some dogs.  But, you do have to be willing to set aside your machismo sometimes in favor of methodical, if unexciting, training.

Seeing's how I'm not terribly MACHO to begin with, no problem!

Seriously though, any dog I met I consider a potential new buddy, so I want to approach them in a way that is going to make them comfy with me.  And the key to that is to let THEM approach me.  If it takes completely ignoring a dog, I'll do that.

But, again, the work I do with rescues and fosters isn't really considered training.  This is a lay persons opinion only.

This post and Spiritdog's post remind me of something someone else, MP, I think, said. A skilled trainer using these calming methods looks like she/he isn't doing anything at all, which is actually not the case. The trainer or rehabber is actually watching signals and waiting and giving equally calming signals that are subtle and don't look different from ordinary movements.

So, let's up the theoretical stakes. The dog is dragging the leash and you grab it or it is handed to you. If the dog reacts, what then? If it is an enclosed space, the best bet might be to let go. If the dog was doing fine before grabbing the leash or being handed off to you, let him go back to being fine. If the whole point is to have the dog being calm, even when held on leash then fighting him or letting him get into a frenzied state may not always be the best move. True, some dogs, when flooded this way, may eventually get through the fear and realized that nothing bad happened, in spite of all the histrionics. But that would be an individual dog and not all dogs. I personally can't know ahead of time whether a particular dog I have just met will respond successfully to flooding. I'm just not that good. So, I would probably avoid flooding. I can predict, however, what will happen if the dog stays calm and I introduce reasons to stay calm or even be happy.

So, what if we're out and about and there's traffic and the dog is on leash and you can't afford to let go for fear of the dog getting hurt or creating traffic hazards that will get other people hurt? And the dog is going nuts. I am going to do what I can to keep from getting hurt, even if that means defensive moves. As on instructor said about knife fights, you are going to get cut so choose where you are going to get cut. Hence, always wear thick leather shoes. Given the chance, I would have some tranquilizer or calming meds if it's that bad of a problem. Medicating the dog can help until other training takes place. Is that how dogs trained each other 100,000 years ago? Probably not. But that is how Ron is going to handle this problem today. And if I can't afford the meds and time to deal with such a dog, I probably shouldn't have him in the first place. To some that may sound heartless and cruel but in my inept hands is the dog any better off? And I'm not willing to be bitten. I don't have the budget others might have to get myself sown up. So, I have to search for the least invasive method of introducing calmness to the dog and then building upon that state of mind.

ron2

the best bet might be to let go.

I've let go once and it was worse.  She could just overpower me from every angle if she wanted too.  I had nothing to hold her back with.

willowchow

ron2

the best bet might be to let go.

I've let go once and it was worse.  She could just overpower me from every angle if she wanted too.  I had nothing to hold her back with.

 

In that case, what did you do? And was it effective? Or did the problem subside over time?

ron2

If it is an enclosed space, the best bet might be to let go. If the dog was doing fine before grabbing the leash or being handed off to you, let him go back to being fine.

Would that not send the wrong message to the dog? ie If I "go nuts" when someone touches my leash, then they will let me go. I don't know?

The only thing I could do that day was try to verbally get her under control which. . .forget it.  And, to protect myself I turned away from her.  I eventually managed to step on the leash so she couldn't move and then once she calmed down I grabbed it again. 

If she was a bigger, taller dog, I'm not sure that would of worked.  Honestly, if my dog or any dog I had on a leash started to attack me, I'd use my Direct Stop on them and if I didn't have it I'd do everything possible including getting physical to keep from getting too hurt. 

I think the whole use food thing works well if they aren't aggressive at that point.  But, once Willow is in that state, food doesn't work.  And, I imagine she's not the only dog like that.

spiritdogs

The object is NOT to trigger aggression, the object is to have the dog be under the aggression threshold.

Right, but what would you do if something else triggered sudden aggression? 

willowchow

I think the whole use food thing works well if they aren't aggressive at that point.  But, once Willow is in that state, food doesn't work.  And, I imagine she's not the only dog like that.

Fair enough and you are right. Sometimes Shadow can key off of something and is not interested in a treat. For example, he has no use for this loud, obnoxious sales associate at Petco. He won't take a treat from the guy and does what he can to stay away within the limits of leash and harness. Those are actually good signs, avoidance of a decidedly unwanted contact. Is he being non-obedient or just showing good taste? Once we are away, he is fine. So, then, getting away from the stressful situation has its advantages.

I like the idea about Direct Stop. It won't hurt the animal and it may keep them away. But in your example, you did drop the leash and later step on it, which separates you from the danger and does give her a chance to change states of mind. So, I'm wondering what your objection to my initial suggestion of dropping the leash was. That is, you actually did what I suggested and then introduced a subtler means of control that was more successful in the end, rather than just hanging on the leash and hope she winds herself out of air.

Also, I'm not solving every problem with food, though I am sure that is what my reputation is. BTW, you should really try the crockpot brisket I have been cooking today.

denise m

Would that not send the wrong message to the dog? ie If I "go nuts" when someone touches my leash, then they will let me go. I don't know?

I think that is exactly what happens. Because dogs seek rewards, dogs do what works. And if going nuts gets them the reward of being left alone or off leash, then that is what they will do to get to their reward, which is some sort of emotional balance to them at the time. And since the dog worked so hard for that reward, they will work hard for another reward.

ron2

denise m

Would that not send the wrong message to the dog? ie If I "go nuts" when someone touches my leash, then they will let me go. I don't know?

I think that is exactly what happens. Because dogs seek rewards, dogs do what works. And if going nuts gets them the reward of being left alone or off leash, then that is what they will do to get to their reward, which is some sort of emotional balance to them at the time. And since the dog worked so hard for that reward, they will work hard for another reward.

 

My uneducated view - even if being left alone is reward enough, the dog has to have motivation to not want to be around the human in the first place to explode, something like mistrust, fear, poor socialisation - and such a confrontational expierence... if the human 'wins' and the dog 'looses' how is that going to build up the basic problem that's inspiring the behavior? If the dog repeatedly is overpowered, won't it just be a submissive acting dog? That doesn't seem safe to me... because if the root issue is still never addressed because the dog is then 'acting right' what if down the road there's another issue, and this submissive acting dog who's only been behaving because it's been thoroughly defeated has another problem - the same problem(lack of trust, fear of humans, ect) then the dog could, without the owner having warning, go ape again - totally natural behavior, the dog wouldn't be jeckle and hyde, it's be consistent with it's view of humans... and showing the behavior it would have shown if the behavior hadn't been 'beaten out of it' sort of.

So, if I *had* to deal with a known aggressive dog, I'd tether it to something, a pole, something, and work with it at a distance with positive reinforcement, basic obdience training, trust building excersizes - I would not under any circumstances touch the dog, I'd use a catch pole to transfer it. I'd treat it exactly as though I were taming a wild, dangerous animal and go as slow as it took.

willowchow

spiritdogs

The object is NOT to trigger aggression, the object is to have the dog be under the aggression threshold.

Right, but what would you do if something else triggered sudden aggression? 

 

Your first obligation is to protect any humans in the vicinity.  What you do depends on the circumstance.  For example, if you haven't got the leash, or any control over the dog, and you are attacked, the only thing to do is avoid being knocked over, try to put something (notebook, clipboard, purse, etc.) between you and the dog, and if you do get knocked over, protect your head, neck and stomach.  If you have the leash, you may be able to handle some dogs so as to turn the head away from you and avoid a bite.  It really depends on the circumstances.  What bothers me is when a trainer's actions ARE the trigger.  That's how a lot of them get into trouble...

So, if I *had* to deal with a known aggressive dog, I'd tether it to something, a pole, something, and work with it at a distance with positive reinforcement, basic obdience training, trust building excersizes - I would not under any circumstances touch the dog, I'd use a catch pole to transfer it. I'd treat it exactly as though I were taming a wild, dangerous animal and go as slow as it took.

This is how many trainers successfully approach the handling and training of an aggressive dog, with great success - tethering.  Often, an owner can tether their own dog, and the trainer can then safely work with it, without triggering any negative response.