Breed disposition to female aggression

A. I didnt say it does not happen

B. I didnt say its easy to deal with

C. I didnt say that a rookie should deal with it without professional help

I can not live with 2 dogs that detest eachother because in the first place i would not let them get all the way to that point.

My only problem with this thread is that almost everybody here thinks this way:

mudpuppy

Once females start to fight seriously your only options are to keep them separated forever or rehome one

A "you are doomed- you better get used to the idea" mentality. Totally untrue, with reliable professional help the issue can be fixed. If somebody gets a professional who gives this type of advice i would say to kick that person to the curb and find somebody else.

This type of mentality on a professional trainer (and i'm not naming anyone in specific) are from people that like to raise their own mental walls. People that really dont know what they are doing and to avoid feeling bad for their failure they rather to blame "X" or "Y" for it. They find a "mental excuse" to protect their lack of skills.

This problem CAN be fixed by a professional that KNOWS how to do it but most of them out there dont know. No physical violence, no aggression towards the dogs, etc. With the right approach and the help of a professional that knows, the owner needs to take charge of the situation and let the dogs know that type of behavior its not allowed within the pack.

Most of the times and most of the people do not know how to communicate this to the dogs, they give up and its "the dogs fault"

Novices beware from those who use "mental excuses" to protect their lack of skills. This type of problem can be solved with professional help, dont let anybody make you believe that you need to get rid of one of your dogs just because somebody who does not know how to do it told you to.

espencer

This problem CAN be fixed by a professional that KNOWS how to do it but most of them out there dont know.

Which professional(s)?  Are they widespread or few and far between?  If I lived on your street and I had this problem, which professional would you recommend in your area?  Do you KNOW anyone that has had this kind of serious problem and fixed it?

espencer

Novices beware from those who use "mental excuses" to protect their lack of skills.

Steady.  You are disparaging the skills and experience of (an)other board member(s) without accrediting your own statements... personal experience and even anecdotal evidence goes a long way to giving your opinions credibility.

espencer

Most of the times and most of the people do not know how to communicate this to the dogs, they give up and its "the dogs fault"

Why paint such owners as failures?  Many people work HARD to resolve this problem, and go a long way toward their goal, yet still feel they must keep the dogs seperate for their own safety.  Have you ever witnessed your own dogs tearing chunks out of each other?  No, of course not, because you are far superior and you "never let it get to that stage".  I don't think you even realise how HUGELY unfair you are being to other people on the board...

 JMO...

It's all very fine and good to say these issues of severe dog aggression CAN be fixed, but it leaves me questioning whether it's FAIR to fix them.  Like most people I tend to prefer to steer clear of anything that makes me feel violent or so angry I can't see straight, and I am unlikely to have any inclination whatsoever to want to become "best friends" with anyone/anything making me that angry.  Why should I expect my dog to, even if I (or a professional) "can"?  I like my dog (and future dogs plural) to have happy lives, not lives in which they are forced to endure the company of another dog that were it not for intensive training they would quite happily kill, just for my convenience. 

And a number of professionals (I don't know how many) would suggest separating and re-homing one of the dogs. I watched an episode of DW where CM was just about suggesting that. The owners had two pit bulls. One had some severe DA issues, even with her housemate. So, the owners, based on CM's assessment (he called it a true red zone case, not just who ate out of who's food bowl or who went through the door first) were seriously considering rehoming the aggressive female. And no one was bad or wrong or deficient in the care and consideration. Sometimes, it is the right decision and it is not from a lack of skill, it is from an honest appraisal and what might be the best options for that exact situation.

Benedict

 JMO...

It's all very fine and good to say these issues of severe dog aggression CAN be fixed, but it leaves me questioning whether it's FAIR to fix them.  Like most people I tend to prefer to steer clear of anything that makes me feel violent or so angry I can't see straight, and I am unlikely to have any inclination whatsoever to want to become "best friends" with anyone/anything making me that angry.  Why should I expect my dog to, even if I (or a professional) "can"?  I like my dog (and future dogs plural) to have happy lives, not lives in which they are forced to endure the company of another dog that were it not for intensive training they would quite happily kill, just for my convenience. 

ron2

And a number of professionals (I don't know how many) would suggest separating and re-homing one of the dogs. I watched an episode of DW where CM was just about suggesting that. The owners had two pit bulls. One had some severe DA issues, even with her housemate. So, the owners, based on CM's assessment (he called it a true red zone case, not just who ate out of who's food bowl or who went through the door first) were seriously considering rehoming the aggressive female. And no one was bad or wrong or deficient in the care and consideration. Sometimes, it is the right decision and it is not from a lack of skill, it is from an honest appraisal and what might be the best options for that exact situation.

 

Yeap he said that, the owners declined and said that they were going to do anything that was possible and didnt want to give up. Cesar thought they were not having that determination before. Cesar was impressed and agreed that if they were that determined then it could work.

Here in the board EVEN before knowing how capable the dog owner is and how determined, the answer its right away "nope, give it away, its not going to be resolved ever". With nothing more than a couple sentences of 2 dogs that were involved on a fight. Talking about discouragement!!

Safety its important yes but people here are already advising like if the owner was having 2 lions. Of course the OP does not have an idea if its that bad or not, maybe it was not and the "misdiagnosis" made the OP to get rid of a dog.

Maybe the OP really needs to be a little bit more carefull but again, i think that unless you are there to see with your own eyes whats going on then people here should reserve the "get rid of it right away" comments.

Better to say "get a professional to know how bad it is" before being so negative

mudpuppy

Once females start to fight seriously your only options are to keep them separated forever or rehome one, or someday you'll have a tragic vet visit.

Yep, we learnt that the hard way, my mother and I. Fortunately, the tragic vet visit did not result in the loss of Penny's eye, although it was a near thing. I will NEVER EVER have two females around the same size after that experience. Never. I don't care how often it works or whether there's a way to make it work if it starts going pear-shaped. It's just not worth it in my eyes. The other dog was certainly a bit messed up and it was very difficult to predict when she was going to go off her nut. It was not over the usual things and had nothing to do with resources or status. It was just the way she reacted to a little anxiety. She was very fast and very focused. If you didn't get to her before she got to Penny then Penny would usually end up at the vets. We didn't really know what was going on or why, but we did get a professional in who told us probable reasons for this dog suddenly deciding she wanted Penny dead but couldn't offer anything other than management to help us. When I look back on it knowing all I do now, I think that no we didn't see it coming and probably wouldn't today, and no we would never have been able to trust her no matter how much time we invested into making it work.

The dog she got afterwards was a boy we'd had as a puppy who, despite being heavily socialised as he grew up, became quite aggressive. He got worse and worse. It was fear-related, but he was just like that. Nothing ever happened to him to make him so afraid, but the socialisation probably made it worse. He was sent back to his breeder to be rehomed, but I honestly think he should have been PTS. What kind of life can he have if he's always afraid? I will never know. Maybe he found a home where he wasn't afraid all the time.

Lastly, my boy doesn't lift his leg. He was desexed before he started doing it. That was 3 months ago and he still hasn't started. I kinda wish he would because he sometimes pees on his own chest! My mother's boy was desexed after he started lifting his leg. He doesn't mark his own backyard, perhaps because he's the only boy and considers himself the most important dog in the yard? He will mark out of the yard, though, or perhaps if a strange dog visits. My boy's breeder was running her two girls and the Keeshond girls all together with nothing more than a snarl if one was on heat. I have also met a Leonberger breeder with 4 or 5 girls run together. Again, the odd snark if one was in heat, but nothing serious.
 

Professional help and handler skill are definately important when dealing with certain aggression issues.

I adopted a female-to-female aggressive dog from our local shelter 15 years ago. This dog ended up in the shelter because she was also food aggressive and had attacked a male dog within her household and ripped him up pretty good. She was a high prey-drive cat chaser to boot.

Mia was very much loved at the shelter by the staff, although it was a miracle she had not already been put down due to her history. But, her time was running out at four months with no prospects of an appropriate adoptive home. They didn't want her going to a home which had any other dogs (particularly other females), or cats...I had both.

I managed to convince the shelter to let me have her. With some work, leadership, discipline, patience, love and time, this 6 year old lab mix became very stable and trustworthy. Even to the point of letting the cat eat out of her food bowl and letting one of the hens she originally wanted to eat, perch on her back while she was laying in the yard. She lived in a house with two other female dogs.

So, even with a dog like this, there was hope and a happy ending.

espencer

Here in the board EVEN before knowing how capable the dog owner is and how determined, the answer its right away "nope, give it away, its not going to be resolved ever". With nothing more than a couple sentences of 2 dogs that were involved on a fight. Talking about discouragement!!

Safety its important yes but people here are already advising like if the owner was having 2 lions. Of course the OP does not have an idea if its that bad or not, maybe it was not and the "misdiagnosis" made the OP to get rid of a dog.

That's another of those odd similes but I will go with it. Yeah, if I had two lions, actual lions, and they couldn't get along, I would re-home one of them and I'm certain most people including some professionals would, too. In fact, I'm fairly certain that a large number of them would balk at the notion of comparing domestic dogs to lions but that wasn't my idea. Anyway, with the lions each weighing a couple of hundred pounds and being able to run near 40 mph without breathing hard and having paws as big as a man's face and teeth and jaws that could rip a man in two no matter what sound he can make, I'm quite sure the pro opinion would be to send one of them away. Not to mention what in tarnation am I doing with two lions.

Often times, here, even from members we know, they don't tell everything in the original post. I know one person, a longstanding member, who finally lets out a crucial bit of information about 4 pages of replies into it that helps make everything make sense. There are a few people here who are pros. With certs and creds and mentoring. Not just a collection of dvds. Some of them actually get paid for their opinion about dogs and many of those pros, who are pros even if they don't have a tv show, would suggest re-homing one of the dogs. Otherwise, it will require lots of management, as the couple in the episode I described. They already had the dogs managed. Out at separate times and separate places. The humans want the dogs to be together, not the dogs. So much for whispering to dogs.

I noticed you didn't or couldn't answer the questions about which pros in your area could handle this problem and not recommend re-homing. But I guess we people here who dare to disagree with your favorite are at least good enough to poop on.

espencer

Benedict

 JMO...

It's all very fine and good to say these issues of severe dog aggression CAN be fixed, but it leaves me questioning whether it's FAIR to fix them.  Like most people I tend to prefer to steer clear of anything that makes me feel violent or so angry I can't see straight, and I am unlikely to have any inclination whatsoever to want to become "best friends" with anyone/anything making me that angry.  Why should I expect my dog to, even if I (or a professional) "can"?  I like my dog (and future dogs plural) to have happy lives, not lives in which they are forced to endure the company of another dog that were it not for intensive training they would quite happily kill, just for my convenience. 

Thats human psychology applied to a dog

 

Yup, it is.  So is feeding my dog twice a day, using a lead, having him live inside the house, letting him sleep on the sofa and deciding for him that he needs toys.  

If you think a dog is not stressed by being forced to be in the company of a dog it hates, you're welcome to that opinion, just as I am welcome to mine.  I'm not going to argue with you about it, but I'm also not going to agree with you.

ron2

There are a few people here who are pros. With certs and creds and mentoring. Not just a collection of dvds. Some of them actually get paid for their opinion about dogs and many of those pros, who are pros even if they don't have a tv show, would suggest re-homing one of the dogs.

Yeap, in every job there are pros that do a very poor job. Being a "pro" does not guaranteed good results. In the medical field there is something called "2nd opinion" and i dont need to tell you how many times a "2nd opinion" proved that the first one was wrong, even when both persons are well respected Doctors. I dont think i would take the advice and diagnosis of a Doctor that spends good amounts of time posting on a forum SPECIALLY if that Doctor didnt even see the patient first.

Benedict

So is feeding my dog twice a day, using a lead, having him live inside the house, letting him sleep on the sofa and deciding for him that he needs toys.  

Those are not behavioral problems and in those cases you dont apply human psychology to resolve something; you are just giving them structure. Just like you dont go to the psychologist to decide which soup you should eat today.

espencer

ron2

There are a few people here who are pros. With certs and creds and mentoring. Not just a collection of dvds. Some of them actually get paid for their opinion about dogs and many of those pros, who are pros even if they don't have a tv show, would suggest re-homing one of the dogs.

 

Yeap, in every job there are pros that do a very poor job. Being a "pro" does not guaranteed good results. In the medical field there is something called "2nd opinion" and i dont need to tell you how many times a "2nd opinion" proved that the first one was wrong, even when both persons are well respected Doctors. I dont think i would take the advice and diagnosis of a Doctor that spends good amounts of time posting on a forum SPECIALLY if that Doctor didnt even see the patient first.

Benedict

So is feeding my dog twice a day, using a lead, having him live inside the house, letting him sleep on the sofa and deciding for him that he needs toys.  

Those are not behavioral problems and in those cases you dont apply human psychology to resolve something; you are just giving them structure. Just like you dont go to the psychologist to decide which soup you should eat today.

*content removed, personally directed*

I can not live with 2 dogs that detest each other because in the first place i would not let them get all the way to that point.

YOU are not in control of whether two dogs decide to detest one another, they are.  And, often, when people have a good outcome it's because they know how to modify behavior in the dog that they have, or the dog was not a true "I detest my pack mate forever" situation.  Many dogs that are fearful and aggressive grow to understand that their pack mates are not going to hurt them.  Some dogs spend their entire lives slinking around the house avoiding the house mate that they are terrified of.  Some owners don't recognize either scenario.  But, it would be irresponsible of ANY professional, on this board, or in person, to tell someone that just hard work, or exercise, or discipline, will somehow make things all right, and let them go blithely on their way.  The reason that knowledgeable people tell others how bad it can get is because it CAN, and to warn them of the consequences of guessing wrong, either about the problem or their own abilities to solve it. The one thing that professionals keep in mind is that the people who own the dog must be able to continue its management, or things will go south in a hurry. 

I agree with Kate that no dog should be forced to live in a situation where it must fear death from another dog's attack.  Even humans get to divorce one another when there is violence.  Although, admittedly, there are the co-dependent sorts who will put up with just about anything.  But, in the human world, that's their choice.  I think we have an overriding responsibility to insure that our dogs have a good life, not one filled with fear.  

*content removed, personally directed.* 

spiritdogs

YOU are not in control of whether two dogs decide to detest one another

Um yes i am, i could tell you how but i dont think you would listen anyway.

spiritdogs

But, it would be irresponsible of ANY professional, on this board, or in person, to tell someone that just hard work, or exercise, or discipline, will somehow make things all right, and let them go blithely on their way. The reason that knowledgeable people tell others how bad it can get is because it CAN,

As i remember i was ruling for the OP to consult a professional. Sure it can get bad if its not addressed but its just like me going into a Medicine forum because i'm looking for a remedy for my stomach pain, and instead somebody says to me "Ups, its cancer, you better count your days and enjoy your family" Excuse me? are you a Doctor? and even if you are, have you see me yet?

spiritdogs

Even humans get to divorce one another when there is violence. I think we have an overriding responsibility to insure that our dogs have a good life, not one filled with fear. 

Human psychology applied to a dog again in the first sentence. If the professional knows what he/she is doing then the violence will end and ANY dog would have to live in fear.

How do you know that is not about teaching one of the dogs to respect the bone of the other, or just simply respect of personal space? Oh no, we have to go all the way to "Sorry, get rid of one of them". An out of the door the dog goes, with a history of dog aggression, of course nobody wants an aggressive dog and its put to sleep. Just because the dog was not taught to not to get other dog's bone. Thanks to those folks who advised that COULD happen but never said what to try first.

 Admin speaking...

Just...stop it, please.  The baiting, sniping and bickering have no place in what should be an informative debate.  If you cannot resist trying to bait someone else, do not post unless you want an edit added to your account.  If you can't resist letting yourself BE baited, take a walk instead of posting something that might be edited and/or that you might later regret.  Suspensions will happen if they become necessary according to the 3-strikes policy.

All opinions are valid and no one person has all the right answers.  I ask that all members posting to this thread, as well as any readers/lurkers, remember that.  

As far as I'm concerned, anyone is welcome to try their luck with two girls. In some cases, it works better. My mother just added a girl to her pair of boy and girl because her first girl isn't that comfortable with boys and the first boy wouldn't appreciate sharing his girl(s) with another boy. But she got a much younger and smaller dog than the first girl, knowing how ugly it can get.

Personally, I wouldn't do it unless I had a girl that preferred hanging out with girls. Then I'd get a girl different size and a gap in age. That's just what I would do because I've seen my dog dangling from the jaws of my other dog and I know how helpless I and my family were to derail that train rushing to disaster. Who would knowingly take such a risk with their dogs?? I am not equipped to try to fix such a problem, so I'm certainly not going to do anything to increase the chances of it arising.

This isn't about whether it can be fixed/managed or not. It's about being informed. It can get hideously ugly. If you want two or more girls, then you've got to know just how ugly and how hard it is to manage it or fix it without losing a dog or having your charges live in misery or fear.  

corvus

This isn't about whether it can be fixed/managed or not. It's about being informed. It can get hideously ugly.

You have hit the nail on the head there. 

Often, it CAN be managed, but there are times when it is SO bad that if you don't have many years of experience, knowledge etc. then it isn't worth the risk.  With female pairings (especially when the dogs are of similar age, size, type etc) this is more common.  When I say "not worth the risk", I DON'T mean because a dog isn't worth the hassle (as has been implied), not because the owner is a failure or what have you... but because if it is NOT resolved the consequences can be tragic, not to mention gory...  What I am trying to say is, the reality of having your own beloved dogs ripping each other apart, one or both apparently intent on killing the other...It's HORRIBLE.  Those dire warnings aren't just negativity... they become reality, and often through no discernible fault of the owner.

I strongly dislike the notion that, oh, thanks to you nay-sayers on here, someone will get rid of one of their dogs who will have no chance at a home anywhere else and will end up DEAD - PTS.  That is not necessarily true.  An owner may rehome the dog themselves and not "dump" her at a shelter.  They may choose to keep the dog with the "aggressive history", not feeling comfortable passing that liability on to another home.  And even if it WERE true - what is the worst case scenario if they kept both dogs?  One STILL ends up dead, but in a much nastier, bloodier and more violent way. 

Plus, I can't recall anyone ever outright telling someone "rehome your dogs or keep them seperate forever" WITHOUT suggesting professional assistance... WHENEVER aggression is an issue, professional help is virtually always recommended, no matter what other advice or warnings the person may be offering.

I think the OP is being very sensible in looking at which breeds are predisposed to F-F aggression, so that they are informed.   To pooh pooh the warnings as being of little or no consequence borders on dangerous.