It's Me or the Dog

ron2

Technically, Shadow is part Lab, even though he best fits the Sibe profile. I've bribed him a lot. Bribery and marking have paid off.

I don't have an issue with it (bribery I mean).  I use it myself on occasion, although I prefer to reward when I see what I like without the dog seeing the treat beforehand.  I just couldn't believe the viewers were supposed to be impressed by it!  Yes, she had the dogs spellbound... but she had FOOD and they were LABS.  Hardly a great feat of skill!!

mudpuppy

People would not watch a tv show that actually showed real dog training by real experts because it's completely devoid of any conflicts, violence, or chance to feel superior over other people, and is also usually devoid of anyone even remotely physically attractive or well-dressed.

Well, that's not entirely true. Barking Mad really did have real dog training by real experts, they had fantastic people skills, were very non-judgemental and generally wore the kinds of clothes I wear when working with animals. There was no conflict, really, and it was a great show. They did have an attractive presenter or two who knew not much about animals. They nearly always used positive methods and usually checked the animal out for possible health problems first. They used marker training with a duck and got kids to make toys for a giant octopus amongst other things. They were big on environmental enrichment and finding ways to provide the animals with suitable outlets for their problem behaviour. Presumably people watched that show.

Over here we have Harry's Practice. Dr Harry is a vet and his show usually has a couple of segments about some animal with a behavioural problem. If he knows how to train it, he trains around the problem. If he doesn't, he prescribes drugs. Fair enough, I don't really like his reliance on drugs and he's not exactly a real trainer, but he is at least a professional and he's very popular for reasons I do not really understand. He is condescending, but in the nicest possible way and people take it well. He is not attractive and wears moleskins and a flanny. There is no conflict or violence.

That's just two examples. I'm sure there are many more. Didn't Ian Dunbar have a show for a while?

*misses Barking Mad* I learnt a lot from that show. It's really good.  

Chuffy

 I think my main issue with her is - I honestly think I could probably do what she does.  Easily.  And probably pi** the owners off a whole lot less.  I'd probably use less sound aversion as well.  I don't dislike her, I don't disagree with her... she just fails to impress me because I think half the members on this board probably exceed her skill as a trainer.  And Ron has a point in that it's her acting skills (anc connections ?) that have got her to where she is.  Not her skill with training, or connecting with dogs.... or their owners.

I totally agree that you could do what she does, and maybe better than she.  I think the overriding point here is that there needed to be a show with a more positive perspective on the training process, and yet, TV producers are looking for the commercial factor to be satisfied as well.  Kenny Rogers once said words to the effect that it wasn't your actual talent that made you a star, it was the commercial quality of your voice.  Was it good but also recognizable?  There are many great singers, but you'll buy their CD's if you remember the voice and can discern it from the others.  I tend to agree with him.  It isn't that WE don't know good or bad training when we see it, but the general public tunes in for the entertainment value, too, and in this day and age, no one seems to care about good manners so much.  Cesar can be a chauvinist, Victoria can scold.  If you remember the show "Groomer Has It", most of the participants were pretty quirky in some way - it made them interesting.

Good points, all. Clarence Clements, saxophonist for the E Street Band is a better singer than Bruce Springsteen but Bruce is more recognizable. He has an unmistakable timbre. In Queen, on "Bohemian Rhapsody," it is the drummer, Taylor, who has the castrati falsetto for that high note. But Mercury had the more identifiable voice.

While we're criticizing VS for confronting humans, how many people watch those "survivor" shows, which are not actually about survival but about backstabbing, and hang every week on the next confrontation, the crazier the better? They go out of their way to create animosity and it sells. Because the public buys it.

ron2

In Queen, on "Bohemian Rhapsody," it is the drummer, Taylor, who has the castrati falsetto for that high note. But Mercury had the more identifiable voice.

Good grief, he had the BETTER voice IMO.  Astounding pair of lungs on that guy, and his range was amazing.  JMO.

ron2

While we're criticizing VS for confronting humans, how many people watch those "survivor" shows

Not me.  I HATE "reality TV".  I must be one of those nutsos who actually want to see something real and interesting and relevant to my life on the television, and not just overblown wanna be celebrities caught up in their petty little dramas.  And that goes for VS and her clients, for the most part, as well.

I must be one of those nutsos who actually want to see something real and interesting and relevant to my life on the television

Guess I'm not the only one who hates Survivor.  I like the History Channel.

 I was pretty impressed with the early seasons of her show, mostly because at the time I watched them I was very much in the "novice" stage of training (and still am, just less so) and I liked how clearly she explained much of what she did, even if it was shrouded in a "I have to speak slowly and clearly so you understand me" kind of tone.  The majority of the stuff she does, at least with the dogs, is positive, and that matters because the majority of what I do is positive, though if you ask Ben he'll tell you that having a door on the fridge is decidedly cruel of me.

I do think she's bad with people, I think all 3 of the main trainers on "Dog Borstal" (Chuffy may be the only other person on the forum who has seen that, I don't think it's made it to the US) are better with people AND dogs, while also being primarily positive trainers.

VS walked past DH at Crufts while I was in an office getting my press pass.  He said she looked like a proper grump LOL.  

Benedict

 I was pretty impressed with the early seasons of her show, mostly because at the time I watched them I was very much in the "novice" stage of training (and still am, just less so) and I liked how clearly she explained much of what she did, even if it was shrouded in a "I have to speak slowly and clearly so you understand me" kind of tone.  The majority of the stuff she does, at least with the dogs, is positive, and that matters because the majority of what I do is positive, though if you ask Ben he'll tell you that having a door on the fridge is decidedly cruel of me.

I do think she's bad with people, I think all 3 of the main trainers on "Dog Borstal" (Chuffy may be the only other person on the forum who has seen that, I don't think it's made it to the US) are better with people AND dogs, while also being primarily positive trainers.

VS walked past DH at Crufts while I was in an office getting my press pass.  He said she looked like a proper grump LOL.  

I think Mic is the least positive out of all the three but he's still pretty good... he is VERY rough on the humans.  I notice he always gets the chavvy girls that are hopeless at getting up to walk their dog and "forget" to clean the kennel or give them water, feed the dog on MacDs and ice cream and stay up all night drinking wine and sobbing about how hard everything is.... 

Edit to add Dog Borstal Taster...

Chuffy

he is VERY rough on the humans.

Yes, he is, but he makes FAR more of an effort to tell the humans when they've done something right than VS does, IMHO.   Also, in a weird way (and people familiar with him might not agree) his toughness is almost forgivable.  He used to train police dogs (maybe still does) and he's probably always HAD to be tough not because of the dogs, but because the people in that environment are going to be some pretty tough people and I doubt he'd have been taken seriously in his career if he was a wimp.  If VS had some kind of "justification" for being as brutal to people as she is, I might understand it more.  I don't really know her history and maybe she does have something similar in her background.  Do I think they're both harsh?  Yes, but I still think Mic is easier to take. 

ETA:  And as for him always getting the chavs...LOL...I hadn't really thought about it but that's true.  Did you see that one with the woman who fed her (IIRC) chocolate lab Snickers bars and then wondered why he was hyper?  

spiritdogs

 

I must be one of those nutsos who actually want to see something real and interesting and relevant to my life on the television

Guess I'm not the only one who hates Survivor.  I like the History Channel.

Oh man..   Do we have to diss Survivor?  I love Survivor!

Benedict

Chuffy

he is VERY rough on the humans.

 

Yes, he is, but he makes FAR more of an effort to tell the humans when they've done something right than VS does, IMHO.   Also, in a weird way (and people familiar with him might not agree) his toughness is almost forgivable.  He used to train police dogs (maybe still does) and he's probably always HAD to be tough not because of the dogs, but because the people in that environment are going to be some pretty tough people and I doubt he'd have been taken seriously in his career if he was a wimp.  If VS had some kind of "justification" for being as brutal to people as she is, I might understand it more.  I don't really know her history and maybe she does have something similar in her background.  Do I think they're both harsh?  Yes, but I still think Mic is easier to take. 

Yes I knew about his background.... and I do agree that he does also praise up his "students" when they do something right... and you can see they are chuffed to bits if he gives them so much as a "well done", because somehow he makes them covet his praise and respect which I don't think VS does....

I'm also able to forgive him when he rips them a new one, because, well, he's funny.  

Twice now Ive typed pretty long responses (second time a shorter version since I was annoyed) and they were BOTH gone all of a sudden at the end, as soon as I was finishing... so just thought Id share that and Ill get back to this when I feel like tryping the same thing for a third time..

I have been in charge of crews a couple of times and have accomplished the impossible timelines because I am quicker to reward a guy for doing right. That is, I didn't just stand around and complain. When I saw them doing well, I praised that. I sought their solutions, which is very rewarding to them. To have your ideas mean something and be valuable is an huge ego stroke. On the last big project I did, we completed 64,000 sq ft of school and admin in half the alotted time with half the size of crew I was supposed to have. In spite of a gen. con. supt. who was foul-mouth and used racial slurs on my crew.

So, what's good for the dog is good for the human.

Very true, Ron. 

spiritdogs

 Someone on the DW thread posted:

And VS, I just find her funny..

  So, I thought we should have our own thread about Victoria...Have at it.

Now, why didn't Ian Dunbar get the show instead of this actress/model/dog walker? Must be the sexy boots and the dominatrix bun.

What I like about Victoria:

She works from a social point and addresses the owner's responsibiity in their interaction with their dog.

She stresses exercise and the importance of being calm.

She believes in setting boundaries.

She uses verbal distractions/corrections. 

Although an APDT member, she has more than just clickers and treats in her philosophical toolbox.

She is helping to bridge the gap between the "positive only" *content removed, inflammatory* and those who use a balance of methods based on positive reinforcement training and the social philosophies.

My issues with her and her show:

She is a bit shrill, self-righteous, and condescending with the owners.

She is high strung and intense around the dogs at times, even though she talks about being calm.

She is anti-crate and makes a dramatic deal out of it.

She uses high-pitched, whimpery tones.

She needs to brush up on what not to feed dogs and not show cooked meat (with bones) and garlic as appropriate foods on her show.

She tends to diagnos dogs as "reacting in fear" when they are often just being brats or acting like bullies.

She could take a more proactive stance in dealing with dog fights or avoiding those situations if she can't handle them.

She needs to stop recommending putting a dog down for unprovable conditions, and be more open to sending them to another trainer who uses a different methodology or philosophy.

Her advice on what to do if confronted by an aggressive dog or being attacked is dangerous.