It's Me or the Dog

Angelique

Although an APDT member, she has more than just clickers and treats in her philosophical toolbox.

She is helping to bridge the gap between the "positive only" *previously removed content* and those who use a balance of methods based on positive reinforcement training and the social philosophies.

Is there some kind of conspiracy theory thing going on that I don't know about?

Angelique

She tends to diagnos dogs as "reacting in fear" when they are often just being brats or acting like bullies.

Do you have any links or clps to use as examples?  A lot of times, people disagree over whether a dog is acting fearfully or bratty... now maybe I am weird, but I like dissecting the examples.  Which dogs did she "misdiagnose" and what behaviour were they displaying that convinced you they were not fearful? 

Angelique

Her advice on what to do if confronted by an aggressive dog or being attacked is dangerous.

Which is...?

Angelique

"positive only" *previously removed content* 

*content removed, referencing previously deleted content**

 But I do agree with you in that she believes in setting boundaries and the hard part is changing the human, mostly. And, as I have stated before, she uses + P but in a way that I think is effective, such as the clanging cookware to ward off counter-surfing. It wasn't about her being "alpha" in dog language, it was about purely applying a stimulus to stop the behavior, and then engaging the -R as the dog quit doing it to avoid the sound of the banging cookware. She never even touched the dog to accomplish. I think that shows a keen understanding of the principles at work. I see other trainers that recommend the use of corrective collars as also using some +P and -R even if I didn't like Donaldson's use of it.

So, yes, VS, like anyone, really, does have +P in her toolbox, it's just not the first thing she grabs. At least with dogs. With humans, however, it seems she starts out swinging.

Is there some kind of conspiracy theory thing going on that I don't know about?

Yes.  

Again, the inference that positive trainers are permissive and have only clickers and food in the toolbox.  *content removed, inflammatory, inappropriate* I'm happy that people are discussing VS, as I am if they discuss any other trainer, but it does seem that we are beating a dead horse, yet again.  

As to why didn't Ian Dunbar get a TV show.  Have you ever heard Ian Dunbar???  Aside from the content of his speeches, which may be fine or not depending on your point of view, he's not exactly an orator.  I would like to see Kathy Sdao get a TV show - at least she's funny and really knows her stuff.

spiritdogs

Have you ever heard Ian Dunbar???

LMAO

spiritdogs

 

Again, the inference that positive trainers are permissive and have only clickers and food in the toolbox. 

Yes, and an implication that being on the list of APDT is somehow a bad thing, which I don't get at all.... seems a rather broad and disparaging assumption, which I don't understand.  What is WRONG with the trainers that are members of APDT?  I'm lost.

Yeah, I getcha, Dunbar is hardly an inspiring speaker! 

I've been to all positive, clicker oriented conferences and seminars designed for the hard core electric collar training for retrievers. They both have validity but if I had to choose which type I would want the average person interested in dog training to attend it would   be the positive, clicker trainer hands down. Why use a jack hammer if you have a clicker in your toolbox. 

Chuffy

spiritdogs

 

Again, the inference that positive trainers are permissive and have only clickers and food in the toolbox. 

 

Yes, and an implication that being on the list of APDT is somehow a bad thing, which I don't get at all.... seems a rather broad and disparaging assumption, which I don't understand.  What is WRONG with the trainers that are members of APDT?  I'm lost.

Yeah, I getcha, Dunbar is hardly an inspiring speaker! 

There are problems with APDT, just as with any other organization.  They supposedly lean toward the positive, but count among their members trainers who advise against the use of food, or who use physical corrections.  So, you cannot rely on APDT membership as an indicator that the person uses lure/reward or clicker training as their main philosophy.  For the record, I'm a member, but still on the fence about whether to certify with them because I find it appalling that when you go to their site, the search function will lead, if the consumer desires, only to certified trainers, yet many of them are, in my opinion, still training with methods from the dark ages, and a few with the CPDT designation are not worth the powder, so to speak...although many certainly are great trainers, and ones which I am proud to regard as colleagues.  Those who espouse so-called balanced training, or correction based training, are more comfy with the IACP because they specifically don't prevent the use of e-collars, etc.  

I think that to judge a trainer you need to audit a class.  Are the methods such that you would be comfortable using them on your best friend?  Do the clients look like they are having some success at the exercises?  Do they look happy, and, perhaps more importantly, do the dogs look engaged, happy and willing?  Can the trainer demonstrate the techniques on an untrained dog belonging to a client?  It's not enough that the trainer owns a nicely trained dog - most trainers love biddable dogs because they are fun to train with.  But, not all the clients come in with herding dogs or sporting breeds - they come with everything from Chihuahuas to Bulldogs, Keeshonds to Basenji's - a trainer has to have experience with more than just his or her own breed, and with all different temperaments.  Not all dogs are trying to take over the household and be the CEO, just as all dogs are not fearful and waiting for the sky to fall.

 This makes sense to me... the way it is at the moment, the field isn't regulated at all... even within the various organisations and such.  The best thing you can do is go see for yourself. 

Caveat emptor!!!

JackieG

I've been to all positive, clicker oriented conferences and seminars designed for the hard core electric collar training for retrievers. They both have validity but if I had to choose which type I would want the average person interested in dog training to attend it would   be the positive, clicker trainer hands down. Why use a jack hammer if you have a clicker in your toolbox. 

Amen to that. I started training in Kenpo Karate in 1977. My instructor, a 5th degree black belt, said that the first thing you need to learn, besides the basic moves, is how to talk your way out of a fight. In a similar vein, choose the right tool for the job. And often, the subtle, soft approach is valid and quick. Or, as a Heinlein character put it, the deal where everyone gets what they want is the best deal and most likely to be honored. So, in that regard, I think VS gives good advice. Motivate the dog. But first, like other sources might say, decide what it is that you want. If you don't want the dog on the furniture, never allow it, even if it means rewarding for staying off the furniture.

I should go over there to the UK with some Godivas and a clicker and train VS how to talk nice to humans. A yankee in the Queen's court, as it were. My own accent can be confusing, though. A bit of Texas drawl mixed with southern California.

Just got finished reading all the posts in this thread.  Here's my 2 cents.  I watch the show, and I like many things she does.  Not everything, but many things.  I also remember it's a TV show, and it's edited, and there's added drama, etc, so I don't take it seriously.  If I see her using a technique that captures my attention, I research it. 

Now, I've watched a lot of the episodes in re-runs, and I don't recall her ever recommending a dog be put down.  I do recall her telling one person that if her dog (a Pom, I think it was, in one of the British episodes, not US ones) didn't stop attempting to bite people, then the owner would not have a choice, and the law would put the dog down.  That's not VS recommending euthanizing a dog due to behavior, but it was her simply telling an owner something she needed to hear....the very real possibility of dire consequences of her dog's behavior.

I've also said "Right on!" to her on a few occasions for bringing up issues that "everyday folks" rarely know about or discuss.  Like how shocked she was to learn a Husky was purchased at 5 weeks old.  She told the owners flat out how unbelievably irresponsible that was of the breeder.  And good for her!  Or when the lady with the Mastiff didn't neuter her dog "because he's so beautiful and would have gorgeous puppies."  So VS busted out all those colored balls to make her point about irresponsible breeding.  How many times have we all discussed this very topic on this forum?!  So kudos to her for bringing these issues up to the general population.

I thought it would be interesting when I heard she was going to do shows here how she would react to crating.  As far as I am aware, crate training is much more widely used in the US.  But, I think she's handled it pretty well that I've seen.  All I've seen her talk about is the length of time a dog should be crated without breaks, but she hasn't chastised anyone on the concept of crate training.

Oh, and the guy who refused to feed the foster pug because he never agreed to have it in the house needed to be verbally slapped around.  JMHO.

Chuffy

the way it is at the moment, the field isn't regulated at all... even within the various organisations and such.  

Two articles worth a read regarding this subject on the International Association of Canine Professionals site:

A Look at the American Humane Association Human Dog Training Project

http://www.dogpro.org/index.php?pageID=47

A Second Look At the American Humane Association Human Dog Training Project

http://www.dogpro.org/index.php?pageID=55

spiritdogs

I would like to see Kathy Sdao get a TV show - at least she's funny and really knows her stuff.

I think my pick would be Suzanne Clothier, for the same reasons.

 I dunno.  I've been to seminars by both, and while I appreciate Suzanne's perspectives, and found much of her information helpful, I didn't find her that funny.  Now that you mention it, Kathy is funny, but the real hysterical one is Sternberg.  When she's not busy being so controversial, she's actually hilarious.  Trish King can be funny, too, in a toned down kind of way.  Pia is too, but she has that whiny voice that you can only listen to for so long.  I forgive her because she loves Aussies;-)

I'm not that big a fan of the APDT, despite being a member (the listing drives some customers my way, though most get to me by vet referrals and word of mouth).  I noted what the article said about it being almost impossible to get into the biz in the UK without being a member, and that is where I think they are headed here, although that really does distress me.  I know so many trainers who are top notch and are not members, nor are they members of any other training organization.  Many predate the existence of those organizations, and have evolved their training methods with the times anyway.  Interestingly, everyone seems opposed to "helicoptering", so maybe some of the more public dog authorities will, sooner or later, have to stop doing it, which would be a good thing.  Helicoptering, in my view, is much like being tangled in your parachute once you've jumped from the aircraft, thinking that surely it will choke you and kill you before you hit terra firma.  I don't think I'd want to be responsible for making any living being that terrified.  Yet, there are still people who inflict that sort of thing on dogs.  And, as we all know, they will claim that they are just being leaders or using a balanced approach.  I use a balanced approach, too, but it involves benign penalties, not abuse.  And, I would hope that we drift in that direction.  As to the "positive" approach being responsible for the chaos in the schools, I have a different take on that.  It is the lack of discipline and respect that is to blame, but it is NOT the absence of corporal punishment.  It's the lack of an ability on the teachers' part to be able to say what they mean and mean what they say, without being mean, and WITH the support of parents.  It is the lack of parental authoritative conduct (note I didn't say "authoritarian conduct";)  from the home transferring then to the school setting that has resulted in kids who blow off their teachers.  

aerial1313

I thought it would be interesting when I heard she was going to do shows here how she would react to crating.  As far as I am aware, crate training is much more widely used in the US.  But, I think she's handled it pretty well that I've seen.  All I've seen her talk about is the length of time a dog should be crated without breaks, but she hasn't chastised anyone on the concept of crate training

I recently saw one of the reruns where she showed someone how to acclimate their dogs to crates, so, while I agree that in the UK it's much less popular than in the US, she expressed a reasonable perspective on their use, and did not let the owner off the hook when it came to exercise as part of the process.

spiritdogs

I'm not that big a fan of the APDT, despite being a member (the listing drives some customers my way, though most get to me by vet referrals and word of mouth).  I noted what the article said about it being almost impossible to get into the biz in the UK without being a member, and that is where I think they are headed here, although that really does distress me.  I know so many trainers who are top notch and are not members, nor are they members of any other training organization.  Many predate the existence of those organizations, and have evolved their training methods with the times anyway.  Interestingly, everyone seems opposed to "helicoptering", so maybe some of the more public dog authorities will, sooner or later, have to stop doing it, which would be a good thing.  Helicoptering, in my view, is much like being tangled in your parachute once you've jumped from the aircraft, thinking that surely it will choke you and kill you before you hit terra firma.  I don't think I'd want to be responsible for making any living being that terrified.  Yet, there are still people who inflict that sort of thing on dogs.  And, as we all know, they will claim that they are just being leaders or using a balanced approach.  I use a balanced approach, too, but it involves benign penalties, not abuse.  And, I would hope that we drift in that direction.  As to the "positive" approach being responsible for the chaos in the schools, I have a different take on that.  It is the lack of discipline and respect that is to blame, but it is NOT the absence of corporal punishment.  It's the lack of an ability on the teachers' part to be able to say what they mean and mean what they say, without being mean, and WITH the support of parents.  It is the lack of parental authoritative conduct (note I didn't say "authoritarian conduct";)  from the home transferring then to the school setting that has resulted in kids who blow off their teachers.

That paragraph is a work of art, suitable for framing. If we had a cert process wherein trainers had to quit using such drastic techniques as helicoptering, that would cut out the guy with the tv show, for I have seen him helicopter more than once, regardless of dog size. It's how he got carved up (deep cuts and profuse bleeding) from an Alaskan Malamute. He was trying to hold the collar high to keep the dog as far off the ground as he could and the dog let him have it. For some reason, flooding and hanging by the neck didn't work like one would have hoped it would.

I don't think I've seen VS helicopter. Donaldson has, though it might have been by accident as the dog was a jumper straining against a Gentle Leader. But VS has not. VS may give the baleful glare and express displeasure. And many might adhere to it. Like a momma dog growling and others fall in line. Without raising a single paw or hand.

I was raised with corporal punishment and now, I get paid to do the very things that got me punished as a kid. Climbing things, playing in the dirt. I minded my mother long after I was too big for her to spank. Because getting along was easier than not. But one I did understand, was that the punishment was a consequence of the bad behavior, not my mom at 5' 7" trying to physically dominate my gigantor frame. And like VS, I have barked at people when I think they needed it. One time, quite literally. I was in charge of a combo school and admin center and another guy and his helper were sent to the job to trim the kitchen. He started walking around and bossing my crew, then he started telling me what I ought to do. I put up with for a day. The next morning, he started laying out the plan he thought we should be doing and I barked, loudly, like a dog. He flinched. I said, in a much quieter voice, "This is my fire hydrant." And he shut up and did as he was supposed to do and we got along fine after that. It sounds like I used +P and maybe I did. And like VS, it was +P used at the right time on the right indivdual.

VS makes some big mistakes at times, I remember the show with the Great Danes where the youngest dog was completely out of control and was throwing off the rest of the dogs.The dog was not trained to walk on a leash, the dog had no training period.Edit: next thing you see is the dog with Gentle Leader being walked by other dogs, and the dog was going crazy no matter what. I call that a severe shortcut. This dog needed some god training before being taken out with this nasty contraption around his face. There are many blunders this woman has made.