FED UP with leash aggression

ORIGINAL: RidgebackGermansShep

Kaiser has played with all most all of my friend's dogs...i'd say the number is around 20. The only dog he had problems with and couldn't get over was with an unaltered male pit bull. When Kaiser is off lead, he will act dominant at first...hair bristled, tail up, stiff posture...but if the other dog doesn't act aggressively and obviously wants to play, then we have no problem. He also only exhibits this behavior with larger dogs. we have never had a problem with small dogs. And i agree, Kaiser is one of the best house dogs i have ever been around, but when i get him out around other dogs, he is a different dog. The only weird thing he does around humans is stare at them and kick the grass up behind him...but he's affectionate with complete strangers. I'm watching feisty fido on ebay, i think it ends tomorrow, i'm excited!

This sounds like a case of, your dog doesn't see you as the one in control or in charge. this is were a behaviorist (a good one) can help you a great deal. You should really consider looking into it.

I agree with spiritdogs. This as an association problem not a leadership problem, well sort of I do agree that the leash can act like a telegraph wire to the dog. I also like Pat McConnells methods. or more of her ideaology.

I really believe most dogs have little concertn of rank, since selectively bred animals have not lived in real dog packs for sometime now. The instinc in a lot of dogs is watered down. Also, I have a dog that I would consider high pack drive, she likes to be with the pack, loves me to death. But yet she does not vie for rank. Dog did not live and thrive for 14,000 years by every dog constantly trying to climb the ladder.

and the post above about the dog posturing towards the un nuetered pit. This has nothing to do with leadership. this has everything do with the dog being insecure, insecure that the larger dogs are more "man" than he is. This dog is an alphla wannabe. He really has no power, but easily gets threatened. and with unneutered pitbull, I would think that the problem lies in breeding rites, not pack strucuture. though I think pack structure is a viable part of a dogs life, I think it is a horrible and dangerous idea to employ into dog training. It leaves you one option, to employ force.

All my dogs know I am in charge. because I teach them young I have everything good. I think that a lot of dog human relationships are parasitic with the dog receieving and never giving. Remember dog evolution with humans was based on that they worked for us, and we provided for them. Not that the we were king and they were loyal subjects.
 
this dog here, I swear could kill a man, highly aggressive. What made him aggressive? People trying to be dominate over him, this one decided to fight back.
 
later he was bought at 25 months old and worked with using postive association and desensitization. and a tad of obedience
 
enjoy.
 
[linkhttp://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Ex%20Bh%2012-16-06.wmv?uniq=-5nhs0o]http://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Ex%20Bh%2012-16-06.wmv?uniq=-5nhs0o[/link]

ORIGINAL: gunny1

I agree with spiritdogs. This as an association problem not a leadership problem, well sort of I do agree that the leash can act like a telegraph wire to the dog. I also like Pat McConnells methods. or more of her ideaology.

I really believe most dogs have little concertn of rank, since selectively bred animals have not lived in real dog packs for sometime now. The instinc in a lot of dogs is watered down. Also, I have a dog that I would consider high pack drive, she likes to be with the pack, loves me to death. But yet she does not vie for rank. Dog did not live and thrive for 14,000 years by every dog constantly trying to climb the ladder.

and the post above about the dog posturing towards the un nuetered pit. This has nothing to do with leadership. this has everything to do with breeding rites.

 
Yikes!
 
How did you form these opinions?
 
Your last paragraph is interesting...

Well, I train dogs for sport. I allow them do just about everything that most trainers claim will cause dominace. everything form biting me, to running across the table. They all seem to learn that I am in charge. And were not talking about beagles, were talking about dogs that were bred insanley driven, brave, runn through gunfire and get the job done.
 
They all learn by no fault of mine that I am in charge. There is some amount of drive for some dogs to find a place in the pack. My addie will stand over dogs and growl. but I do not think she really knows why. the minute the dogs get up she slinks. I believe the drive is somwhat confused. I have another dog that is defintly got has natural poise to be a leader. but she only uses it to keep dogs away from her chair. Every dog that has ever met her has shown respect she gives off a vibe. she is very serious. but yet she will not challenge another dog for food or a toy. she relquishs it willingly. That submission if you ask me. but if another dog walks in a room she is in, she immediatly stiffens and stares them down. again the drive is very confused. then there is my firends dog sherry. sherry will posture to every dog she meets. if they do not back down she fights, then when they fight back she screams. and five minutes later she will do it again. that's extremely confused.
 
My first dog ever, i trained using the dominace model. I ruined him. he will posture to every dog he sees, as a bluff. he is scared to death. he does not want to fight, nor does he care about rank. he want s to be safe. and if he can trick them into cowering, maybe they won't beat him up. again confused,and watered down.
 
then I see these dogs at the dog park, running with there tongue hanging out looking goofy, chasing a ball. and there owner says come. the dog chases the ball. the owner explains to me the dog is highly dominate. actually the dog is highly ball driven.
 
and as for me training in sport. I want to win. through that i have solved more problems using operant and classical conditioning than anything else.
 
a lot of trainers I meet cannot tell me the difference between, postive punishment and negative reiforcement, everything is explained by the dominace theory.
 
 

I can make a statement to one thing I know for sure, once dogs are left on their own, is it not fair to say , that they return to their wild roots?
So, giving a dog a stable environment, and leadership will in most cases keep a dog in line.

Humans, and how they interact with dogs are the key to how a dog will turn out.[]

ORIGINAL: gunny1

Well, I train dogs for sport.

WOW! while you may train dogs for sport, I've trained them from everything like scent detection to bite work, and what your saying can not only mislead people but put them in harms way.

I allow them do just about everything that most trainers claim will cause dominace. everything form biting me, to running across the table.

In the real world this would most deafinately cuase problems for the average joe.

They all seem to learn that I am in charge.

Really, and this is done by magic, or training. Lots, of training., more than what the average owner does?

And were not talking about beagles, were talking about dogs that were bred insanley driven, brave, runn through gunfire and get the job done.

No dog does that without extensive training, so my point is made.

They all learn by no fault of mine that I am in charge.

so then you saying, it is 'magic".

There is some amount of drive for some dogs to find a place in the pack. My addie will stand over dogs and growl. but I do not think she really knows why. the minute the dogs get up she slinks. I believe the drive is somwhat confused. I have another dog that is defintly got has natural poise to be a leader. but she only uses it to keep dogs away from her chair. Every dog that has ever met her has shown respect she gives off a vibe. she is very serious. but yet she will not challenge another dog for food or a toy. she relquishs it willingly. That submission if you ask me. but if another dog walks in a room she is in, she immediatly stiffens and stares them down. again the drive is very confused. then there is my firends dog sherry. sherry will posture to every dog she meets. if they do not back down she fights, then when they fight back she screams. and five minutes later she will do it again. that's extremely confused.

Sounds a lot like confused unbalanced dogs, and contradictory to  the point your trying to make.

My first dog ever, i trained using the dominace model. I ruined him. he will posture to every dog he sees, as a bluff. he is scared to death. he does not want to fight, nor does he care about rank. he want s to be safe. and if he can trick them into cowering, maybe they won't beat him up. again confused,and watered down.

So you did it wrong, not the dogs fault. but yours. One should work on being a good leader, not a dominate "model".

then I see these dogs at the dog park, running with there tongue hanging out looking goofy, chasing a ball. and there owner says come. the dog chases the ball. the owner explains to me the dog is highly dominate. actually the dog is highly ball driven.

Not suprising that most people do not understand their dogs.

and as for me training in sport. I want to win. through that i have solved more problems using operant and classical conditioning than anything else.

Good techniques with the right dogs.

a lot of trainers I meet cannot tell me the difference between, postive punishment and negative reiforcement, everything is explained by the dominace theory.

By all means, please feel free to share an example of what you think the diffrences are, that would be helpful to those reading your post.

Actually the sport I train, includes protection work and scent detection.
So I would love to hear how you get a dog to feel brave enough to engage a man whom wishes to do harm to it. I am very active in the protection world. And I believe, that you'll find many, many trainers of protection dogs allow the dogs to get away with lots and lots of stuff. And in Europe they actually kennel the dogs for the first 7-18 month of life, no training, nothing. they just let the dog be free and grow up.

Actually I find my dogs learn, I am incharge by controlling access to everything good in thier lives. I do so without using any type of force at all.

and I agree dogs that are pets, do not need to be left to be free, no need for it. people want well mannered pet. I want a dog that is animated, noisy and will do anything to get what it wants.

I also think if you took a look around you would see alot of confusion in alot of dogs. I have seen dogs chase a squirell, kill it, and then stare it, like what I am suppose to do with this. As if they have no idea that hunting is a means of eating. And Addie is zico grandaughter, and turcodos greatgrand daughter. out of elgos lines. I am sure if you are involved with scent dogs and protection dogs you know who those dogs are. And yes my dogs are not balance. as you will find with any good protection dog the dogs that are extreme do the best.

Operant and classical condtioning are not techniques. luring is a technique, modeling is technique. They are learning theories, Which I might add, every mammal learns using operant and classical condtioning. I think maybe you should pick up the book. "how dogs learn"

I did not do the dominace model wrong. The behaviors of most dogs have little or nothing to do with gaining rank.



as for examples of positive punishment and negative reiforcement.

P+ is an aversive applied to stop a behavior.
R- is an aversive applied to create or continue a behavior.

case in piont. dog barks, dog is choked. positive punishment
Dog is told to heel, handler walks, dog does not follow, dog is shocked with a collar till dog gets to handler side negative reiforcement.

one the dog's behavior punished

one the dog is punished till the proper behavior begins. the dog is working to aviod correction.

Let me ask you a question, if the dog is starining at me, I say sit, and nothing happens. though the dog has been taught sit, is the dog being dominate, has the dog forgotten, is the dog generalizing the command to some obscure thing like sit only happens in the living room. what would be the correct course of action to remedy the lack of sit?

Humans, and how they interact with dogs are the key to how a dog will turn out.

ORIGINAL: snownose

I can make a statement to one thing I know for sure, once dogs are left on their own, is it not fair to say , that they return to their wild roots?
So, giving a dog a stable environment, and leadership will in most cases keep a dog in line.

Humans, and how they interact with dogs are the key to how a dog will turn out.[]

 
 
But what about genetics, there are some behaviors that are inate in dogs. Somethings either we have not learned enough about training yet, or no matter what the dog is so compelled naturally to do them we cannot stop it.

Stimulating the dog,it may be exercise, games, or giving the dog what it was bred for, in my case 3 of my dogs are German Shepherds, the other 2 are rescues, breed 1 Husky/Mal. mix,breed 2 Husky/Chow mix.
 
I have my hands full, but I work the crap out of them......[]

this it to the OP,
 
For leash aggression a great exercise is this.
 
you will have to teach focused heeling first, or just get the dog to look at you. once you have watch command down
 
Get some yummy trats go for walk at meal time so the dog is hungry. The minute the dog sets eyes on another dog. ask for the watch. feed the dog till the other dog has passed a safe distance behind. do this a few times. soon you will notice the dog is looking at you the minute it sees another dog on it's own. feed randomly till the dog passes. if the dog looks to the other dog, correct, and the minute the dog looks back feed again.
 
soon you can hold the watch without feeding till end.
 
you will have to randomly feed the dog every few passes. to create a random reward pattern. but after awhile you will be able to get the dog to watch without a reward.
 
from time to time is not a bad idea to reiforce the behavior again with food to keep the dog guessing, so they never know when you will pay out.

Totally OT, however, as I sit here reading through the forum, I have to wonder where the heck is the Idog that I know and love?  Who are all these people who are so intent on attacking one another instead of disagreeing respectfully?  When did it become ok to pick apart each and every line of someones post?
 
I gotta say, I'm disguisted with what I'm seeing on the forum this morning.  I should have slept in and not bothered reading at all.[:'(]

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


Well, having seen Tricia McConnell in action, I'm satisfied that she does know how to deal with a reactive dog.  As to others, I judge them individually, too, and I respect education, be it formal or otherwise. 

I'm curious, just what do you consider a "reactive" dog?

Have "you" personally seen her approach and deal with a pit, rottie, cmd, gsd, cc, that were beyond puppy hood and well into extreme aggression. Please be honest here, as I am well informed of the subject at hand.

We are not talking about extreme aggression here.  Reactivity, in our context, refers to dogs who lunge, bark, or snap while on lead when another dog appears.  The reactive dog is not necessarily aggressive.  In fact, frustration is a common elicitor of such behavior, too.  Generally, these dogs are fine off lead, or they are minimally aggressive (as in, they might "tell another dog off" with a few air snaps, but not do damage).  I have seen Tricia work with such dogs.  As to the other type, the truly aggressive dogs, I have seen trainers and ACO's handle them as well, but not Tricia.  That does not mean that I think she would be incapable of doing so, just that I have not personally seen it "live".   I have certainly seen others work with the kind of dogs you describe - but what's your point?  We are not talking about Cujo on this thread.  So, instead of asking if I have seen a particular person work with a seriously aggressive dog as if she were unqualified to do so, why don't you email her and ask her.  After all, I have been to a couple of her seminars, I don't follow her around the country or onto her farm to see who she works with on a day to day basis.  Her protocols work quite well for the type dog we are discussing here, so what's your point?
BTW, I was a bit perplexed by your comment "let's be honest here".  That implies that you think I might lie, to which I take a great deal of offense.  If you think I'm an idiot that doesn't know what reactivity is, and have never seen true aggression, and would lie about it (why would I feel the need?) then say so.  Don't beat around the bush to avoid being castigated by the mods for simply calling me a liar.
Glenda is right - shouldn't have bothered reading the forum this morning. [:'(]

Our training was not for sport, but for actual patrol and real life work ,  so there is a difference.

So I would love to hear how you get a dog to feel brave enough to engage a man whom wishes to do harm to it. I am very active in the protection world. And I believe, that you'll find many, many trainers of protection dogs allow the dogs to get away with lots and lots of stuff. And in Europe they actually kennel the dogs for the first 7-18 month of life, no training, nothing. they just let the dog be free and grow up.

It is a myth that a dog with obt put on it will not have confidence. Unless the trainer is instilling fear in the dog by training it wrong. As far as how we do it goes, well, a simple 15 min obt session followed by tug, ruff play, and always letting the dog win. I've worked with dogs that will eat you head to toe. OBT didn't effect them negatively at all, it did however give the handle control of their dog. and if one doesn't have control, how do they, for example, pull the dog off the bite. I am not of the mind set the other countries know better than us about dog training, and I've seen nothing through out my career to show other wise. Keeping a dog kenneled for 18 months is allowing him/her to grow up??? Sounds like a sad life for a any dog.

Actually I find my dogs learn, I am incharge by controlling access to everything good in thier lives. I do so without using any type of force at all.

Sounds a lot like passive force to me. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Allow me to ask this. So you control all things, so if the dog is acting up, doing things he/she shouldn't do, takes a bite at you at feeding time, do you feed him/her?

and I agree dogs that are pets, do not need to be left to be free, no need for it. people want well mannered pet. I want a dog that is animated, noisy and will do anything to get what it wants.

I thought this thread was about someone with a pet wanting to stop aggression.

I also think if you took a look around you would see alot of confusion in alot of dogs. I have seen dogs chase a squirell, kill it, and then stare it, like what I am suppose to do with this. As if they have no idea that hunting is a means of eating. And Addie is zico grandaughter, and turcodos greatgrand daughter. out of elgos lines. I am sure if you are involved with scent dogs and protection dogs you know who those dogs are. And yes my dogs are not balance. as you will find with any good protection dog the dogs that are extreme do the best.

I don't see a dog that chases and kills something but doesn't eat, as confused at all. #1. Dogs at some level all have prey drive, it's one reason they chase toys. #2. I don't allow dogs to chase anything that I don't throw, or tell them to, such as a bad guy in a bite suit or wearing a sleave. #3. And a well trained dog, can be extreme, I've seen it for years.

Operant and classical condtioning are not techniques. luring is a technique, modeling is technique. They are learning theories, Which I might add, every mammal learns using operant and classical condtioning. I think maybe you should pick up the book. "how dogs learn"

I've been working with dogs for over a couple of decates, I've read hundreds of books, had great mentors, and and well aware of how dogs learn. I was just trying to see where you were coming from. And now I know.

Dogs are pack animals, and it's all about rank. IMO They show this every chance they get when put into large groups. And that is fact.  But that doesn't mean I feel the need to "dominate" them, it simply means I must be a good leader.

I find NO reason to "choke" a dog, and nothing positive about it. It's just cruel and has no place in training.

Let me ask you a question, if the dog is starining at me, I say sit, and nothing happens. though the dog has been taught sit, is the dog being dominate, has the dog forgotten, is the dog generalizing the command to some obscure thing like sit only happens in the living room. what would be the correct course of action to remedy the lack of sit?

#1. Well, it could be the dogs not sitting because he/she wasn't trained properly. #2. Doesn't believe their handle is their leader (master). #3. There's something wrong when a dog is taking a dominate stance with their handle and not obeying a *command*. If trained well, a simple, NO! sit should do. If not the dog is corrected or placed in a sit. Then is told to do so again, when he/ she obeys, they are praised. you have now set them up to win.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
We are not talking about extreme aggression here.  Reactivity, in our context, refers to dogs who lunge, bark, or snap while on lead when another dog appears.  The reactive dog is not necessarily aggressive.

I couldn't agree more with the latter part of that, but some dogs who are leash aggressive can, given the chance to get a hold of another dog, can go into full blown aggression.

In fact, frustration is a common elicitor of such behavior, too.  Generally, these dogs are fine off lead, or they are minimally aggressive (as in, they might "tell another dog off" with a few air snaps, but not do damage).

Agreed, but! that is not the same as leash aggression.

I have seen Tricia work with such dogs.  As to the other type, the truly aggressive dogs, I have seen trainers and ACO's handle them as well, but not Tricia.  That does not mean that I think she would be incapable of doing so, just that I have not personally seen it "live".

I already knew the answer, which is why I asked the way I did. I was not suggesting you would lie, and I'm sorry if it sounded that way. However, I don't know you.

I have certainly seen others work with the kind of dogs you describe - but what's your point?  We are not talking about Cujo on this thread.  So, instead of asking if I have seen a particular person work with a seriously aggressive dog as if she were unqualified to do so, why don't you email her and ask her.  After all, I have been to a couple of her seminars, I don't follow her around the country or onto her farm to see who she works with on a day to day basis.  Her protocols work quite well for the type dog we are discussing here, so what's your point?

My point? Just because someone is a PhD behaviorist, doesn't mean they can or are capable or even willing to work with the larger, most aggressive of dogs. I know of a well know PhD behaviorist ( no names) who had someone chain their dog to a tree to work with it. Which was the wrong thing to do, period.

 

Don't beat around the bush to avoid being castigated by the mods for simply calling me a liar.

I never beat around the bush, and geez! if  "the mods" "castigate" me for trying to put some light on a subject, then I must be in the wrong place. I thought this was a place where anyone could state their opinion. Not just you. I'll be sure and watch how I say things to you from now on. Would that help?

Glenda is right - shouldn't have bothered reading the forum this morning. [:'(]

I've seen others put peoples words into quotes so they can (seams to me) clearly touch on each point. Why would that be so upsetting to someone?

Talk about being perplexed

Another thread that has gone awry and has NOTHING to do with the OP.
 
Yikes.  I'm out.