FED UP with leash aggression

    • Gold Top Dog

    FED UP with leash aggression

    I have posted about Kaiser's leash aggression before. You all recommened a book, but i couldn't find it in the bookstore or pet store. I can't remember the name...could someone remind me so i could order it?
     
    In the meantime...any advice is greatly appreciated. Today there was a dog barking through a fence when i walked by. Of course, Kaiser was going nutso...barking, bristling, lunging, etc...He almost dragged me down trying to get to the dog. I also feel like when i correct him via a prong, it just fuels the fire and makes him more mad! When he wears a halti, he gets more upset and usually ends up slamming in to me, because he's jumping around. It's getting to be quite an issue, and i'm fed up. Should i maybe talk to a behaviorist?
    • Gold Top Dog
    have you spent time in well organized and run obedience classes.   I think in addition to the kennel club classes at the LKC there is also  Lexington club that does training.  Those types of clubs typically have lots of skilled trainers.  In some cases, there will even be the option of setting up private lessons or single dog classes so you can work on the behaviors.
     
    Some of the things you can try involve managment and training.
    Management
    1)  Change your walk route every day so there is less chance he will start revving up when he gets to the "bad" dog's house.  If you see something you expect will trigger his behavior, change direactions.  Go back the other way or cross the road so there is more distance.  Try and remember to keep calm and collected and KEEP moving away from the distracting dog.  Constant pressure on the lead will work against you.  So in the situation a pull and immediate release will better able you to get past the location.
     
    Training
    2.  Go to the locations you know he has trouble.  Walk slowly toward the trouble house, carefully observing his behavior.  You are looking for the point at which he STARTS to rev up.  Once you have found that spot, take two large steps FURTHER away.  Now that you are that distance, practice tricks, obedience behaviors, eye contact.  I suggest you count out 10 treats to keep track of the amount of practice.  Now walk away to another trouble spot.  Repeat the movement toward the distraction and the back up once you hit the "critical" distance.  Repeat the 10 treat practice.  Try for one more location.  5 days out of 7 should get you some results.  Once he can get to a sidewalk distance and ignore enough to follow commands, go find new places that he will be distracted. 
     
    If the distances between places is too great, walk away from the first target house/location for a few minutes.  Then when all is relaxed and calm, repeat the procedures.
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    "Feisty Fido" available at dogwise.com or dogsbestfriendtraining.com.
    With Shepherds, best to limit their view through fences - a privacy fence is best.  Otherwise, you will have an almost impossible time dealing with this.  A prong often makes matters worse, as you surmised.  The dog feels pain, and associates it, perhaps, with the dog he is seeing.  The dog may NOT learn that when he lunges he gets pinched, so best not to lunge.  What he may be learning instead - "Hmm, when I see other dogs, my neck hurts - I HATE other dogs!!!"  Then, as the dog leaves the area, which they invariably do, he feels that his lunging "made that nasty dog go away".  Successful behavior gets repeated, thus you get the vicious cycle.  If you cannot deal with this yourself, by all means consult a legitimate behaviorist, someone with a DVM and specialization, or a Master's or PhD level professional.  (The author of "Feisty Fido" has such qualifications.)
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thank you all so much! Kaiser has been to some training. He was pretty aggressive the first class, mainly with a large unneutered shepherd. After the first class, he was fine. I feel i socialized him very thoroughly as a pup. He frequently went to the dog park, and had no problems. He is never aggressive off leash, unless another dog starts it. If it's agreed that he's the dominant one, everything's fine.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I totally feel your frustration.  I live with this reactivity as well.  The worst part is that it's spreading from Gaia to Xerxes.  He figures that he might as well join in...since his pack mate is upset.
     
    I cannot desensitize with treats-everything upsets her stomach except her kibble and raw ground beef.  I'm NOT carrying raw meat with me on a walk. [;)]  Kibble is not enticing enough. 
     
    Everytime we get a few steps closer to the goal of her not reacting we run into a dum-dum that thinks it's funny to sit there with their dog while she wants to kill that other dog.  I actually had to tell a lady to keep moving...She stopped on the sidewalk and was watching us- we had stepped off the path and into a little hollow in the woods-no escape through the brambles...the only way was to get back on the path where lady and dog were at.
     
    My goal has been to get Gaia to focus on me before we encounter any dog.  It's kind of hard to do because if she scents the dog she'll start reacting.  If I can get any sort of focus on me, I reward with alot of praise and sometimes we'll all do a play dance. (play as the reward-since food can't be used without horrible results.)  It's alot of hard work.  Desensitizing won't work completely because of a lack of control I have over other dogs and their owners.
     
    I'm sorry you have to deal with this as well.  I know it's draining, but I think there's some great advice above.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: RidgebackGermansShep

    Thank you all so much! Kaiser has been to some training. He was pretty aggressive the first class, mainly with a large unneutered shepherd. After the first class, he was fine. I feel i socialized him very thoroughly as a pup. He frequently went to the dog park, and had no problems. He is never aggressive off leash, unless another dog starts it. If it's agreed that he's the dominant one, everything's fine.


    What if the other dog doesn't agree?  There will always be a few of those in the Universe...
    If he is not aggressive when off leash, then my guess is that he is less dominant than fearful or simply reactive or frustrated.  Other references you might want to read -  "Scaredy Dog" by Ali Brown, and "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons.
    • Gold Top Dog
    He was playing with another GSD onetime that didn't agree and it turned into a nasty fight. Thank goodness he came when i called him. Ed, I usually walk both of the dogs at the same time, and i think that Kaiser going crazy freaks Wyatt out...I hope it doesn't start to spread to him as well!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Shadow can do that sometimes, too. If he responds to commands, I give the one for go, as in go forward. Many times, that will work because he knows then what I expect of him in the situation. If it doesn't work, I keep walking because I am the other end of the leash and I outweigh him. That plus a command will get us going again. I came upon this from the notion that dogs sometimes react based on how we react. By taking my focus off of the other dog and placing it in a forward moving direction and commanding as much, I change the focus of our total reaction and intention. It works, mostly.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Yes, i believe Kaiser feeds off my nervousness. I try to be calm, but when i see another dog, my heart starts fluttering a little bit. I just know he's going to embarrass me, and i bet he can feel my nervousness.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't want to get all "preachy" about it, especially given that I already started a thread in A&E, but can I recommend a no-pull harness?  I've just gotten one of these for Ben, and he is simply no longer able to lunge and drag me off to get to where he wants to go.  Because of that, I am MUCH more relaxed knowing that no matter what, I am in control.  Ben can sense that I am more chilled out and doesn't react to me being wound up, just waiting for something to happen.  When he tries to pull he doesn't get hurt - his front legs just get briefly lifted off the ground until he stops pulling, and then he's back down again.  If, like Anne said, there's a possibility of him associating another dog with pain, this might be an effective way for you to remove the pain but keep control over him. 
     
    Having this tool means that I am able to work on his manners and his reactions (he's not leash aggressive, but he still reacts to things) in a much calmer way.  It's basically buying me time to really work with him.  Also, because Ben can sense that I am now in absolute control (despite his strength and absolute ability to pull me over if he wanted to, when wearing a normal collar) he is looking to me much more for guidance and seems to respect me more as his leader.  I've taken him for 6 short walks in the past 24 hours simply to get him used to the harness, and those walks have not only been the best we've ever had, but each one has been better than the last.  Using something like this might give you enough time and control to work on the suggestions the other (more knowledgeable) posters have given.
     
    I live in the UK and know that the one I got is a brand not available there, but in my thread "I have seen the light" in A&E, there are some links to American sites with similar devices that Luvntzus hunted up.
     
    Kate
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: RidgebackGermansShep

    Yes, i believe Kaiser feeds off my nervousness. I try to be calm, but when i see another dog, my heart starts fluttering a little bit. I just know he's going to embarrass me, and i bet he can feel my nervousness.


    That's exactly the feeling that gets leash reactive dogs into trouble, and those books may help.  But, if he is aggressive off leash as well, he should not be off leash at all.  That certainly isn't fair to other owners whose dogs are leashed and not causing any trouble.
    This is also a dog that I would walk on a Gentle Leader headcollar so that I could keep his attention on me, rather than on other dogs.  You do need to know how to use one, but most positive training facilities have a trainer on board who can show you. 

    • Gold Top Dog
    I've been dealing with leash aggression for years with Cairo...in his case I'm 95% positive it's fear aggression.  I've tried many different things to stop this behavior, and have found that probably the biggest thing that makes the difference between a "successful" encounter with another dog and an "unsuccessful" one is the attitude of the whole thing.  If I can manage to keep myself calm and not get angry at all then I consider that a good encounter.  If I feel myself getting riled up inside, that's a bad one.  In that sense, a good chunk of this problem was training myself, not the dog [;)]  When I do stay calm and upbeat, that is reflected onto Cairo and it always amazes me how well it works to keep him well behaved. 

    Now the way I trained him that I didn't want him to display this aggression is probably a little controversial...I used the choke chain.  That was what I grew up using and had been trained for years in 4H to use that, so that's what I felt most comfortable with.  It's also really the only thing I had to use at the time.  When I saw a dog ahead I'd attempt to stay calm and just watch Cairo and the moment I saw him fixate (ears go up, tail goes up, hackles go up) I'd give him a pop on the choke and say "Cairo, Leave It!" and of course at first it really didn't do anything and we'd plunder by with Cairo howling his head off and me feeling like an idiot and a fool who can't control her dog.  It was embarassing as heck.  Eventually it occurred to me that I needed to halt the fixation process.  You could literally watch it build up in him...the moment he saw that other dog, everything about him would change.  His whole demeanor changed...ears up, tail up, hackles up...even the way he walked was different.  It also occurred to me that he can't fixate on something he's not looking at.  So whenever we saw something for him to fixate on, I'd say "Cairo c'mon!" in a really high happy voice and wheel right about and go backwards.  At first it confused the heck out of the poor dog and he'd keep swiveling around and trying to howl and I'd say "leave it" with a little pop on the choke and just keep on going.  After a while though he got over it and would be quite content to turn right around with me and trot along with only his ears back.  It took a lot of repetition to get to that point.

    Once we got that down I started giving him the "leave it" command first before the about turn to see if I could get him to listen.  Eventually I realized that he actually was looking away from the other dog when I said "leave it" and that was a pretty big step...I was pretty much ecstatic when I found that out. [:)]   Now about half the time we can go by another dog without Cairo making a noise, and about 25% of the time we still have to turn around for a little while.  Cairo is now an expert at ignoring anything that's behind him, though, so at least he's not making a fool of himself.  As for myself being embarassed by his behavior...well...at first I was embarassed of myself because I would get frustrated and angry with him, but once I managed to stay upbeat my embarassment pretty much disappeared.  I just shoot a quick smile at the people walking the other dog and continue to make a fool out of myself by talking to my dog in a high squeaky exciting voice.  It looks dumb I'm sure, but it makes Cairo's tail wag and helps direct his attention away from the other dog.  And I'm pretty certain the other people understand that he's in the process of being trained...I can only hope they've noticed how infrequent his explosions have been lately [:)]

    Honestly, for Kaiser, I would just turn around when you see him start staring at another dog.  That way you can practice walking in front of an unusual dog, which is easier because he doesn't have to be actually looking at that dog.  You really have to heap on the praise the moment he shows any sign of releasing his attention from the other dog, that's pretty key.  If you want to keep walking the original direction, however, you can slow down a bit once he calms down and wait for the other dog to start passing you and right as he passes, you give Kaiser the "about turn" command and turn around right as the other dog is going by.  That way he'll start obeying you and not really have enough time to react too bad to the other dog before you're walking away from it again.  That's what works best for me and Cairo at least.  If you're walking by a particular house with a fenced dog, just do the same thing: turn around the moment he fixates.  Once he calms down, try it again.  You might look a little silly, but I think it would work after a while [:)]  I really would walk Kaiser alone for this...it is SO hard to do this when you have two dogs together.  Cairo is infinitely worse when Nikki is there because of the whole pack mentality thing [>:]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Kate, i tried the easy walk harness and wasn't all too impressed. However, i only took him on like 2 walks with it, and then returned it. Maybe i'll give it another try.
     
    I've only seen him aggressive off leash a few times. One time, with the shepherd and a few other times with dogs that have mounted him. He's not hardcore aggressive-just a growl and a flash of the teeth. I do not take him to the dog park anymore...just let him play with my friend's westie and gsp mix. Thank GOODNESS he's not human aggressive...that would be horrible. Actually, i think someone would be lucky to break in, haha!
     
    Nikki_burr, thanks for letting me know about your experience, i will try some of the things you talked about!
    • Gold Top Dog
    It is really worth a shot with the Gentle Leader for leash aggression.  It made my dog so much more calm, like a different dog.  The EZ walk only helps with the pulling itself -- the GL made my dog much less reachive in the first place.  Unfortunateltyhe absolutely hates it and now refuses to wear it.  But many dogs are OK with it.  It is worth a try to see.  Just introduce it slowly and with lots of treats.  And make sure you read the documentation that comes with it and learn how to use it -- you absolutely CANNOT do leash pops with a head halter, it can be harmful to the dog. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Nikki, excellent post. You said some things I meant to say about the timing and redirecting at the first indicator, before escalation.
     
    Ace's Mom, excellent post about educating one's self on the use of the different equipment.
     
    Unfortunately, for us, we can't do much walking in our town, anymore. We seem to have an endless parade of loose dogs, many of them untrained and sometimes ill-mannered. And dogs seem to have this thing about who is on a leash and who isn't and, IMHO, this can create an imbalance in doggy speak. Plus, if the other dog is aggressing, mine can't do much, being tethered to me. That is why, at a dog park, you have two-stage gates. In between the two gates, you unleash yours, so that he/she is not hampered in responding to others. But these days, we're outnumbered. With so many loose dogs, there's just about not anywhere we can walk and not encounter one, or two. So, I drive to a place where we can walk that has almost no off-leash dogs.
     
    I walk Shadow in a regular I-back walking harness, though I do have an x-back racing harness that I made for him. His head and neck are unrestrained. For all I know, he might respond to GL. But, in walking with a regular harness, it forced me to train myself as to what to do and to expect obedience from him, even with an unrestrained neck and head. In one case, it allowed him to teach some manners to a Pekinese. These two Pekinese roam the street whenever they want and will even stare down a car. Even though their house is on a lot less than 1/4 acre, the dogs own about 4 acres. Once, on a walk, they were circling us in pack-hunt formation and the braver/stupid one charged at Shadow. Shadow picked him up by the scruff and shook the willies out of him. He released to get a better hold and the little dog took that moment to show some brains and skedaddle back to his yard. If Shadow had been wearing a GL, he would not have been able to respond properly to the threat and could have been injured by the smaller dog which would have necessitated me hurting the dog. Remember, I've got the leash hand loop around my wrist and I am gripping the leash near that and I would have to disengage the attacking dog and be ready to ward off his mate, who is waiting for his/her turn. But Shadow's imitation of an agitation cycle in a washing machine was enough of a deterrent against a repeat engagement.