Spinoff: Intact males and aggression

ron2

Also, I think we're confusing what is "natural." Humans are not unnatural. We are animals in the world, too. And dogs living with us must live differently than they would in the wild. Why is "natural" only applied to keeping dogs intact and not applied to breeding? If humans are unnatural, then the "pure" breeding we so love to hang on to is very unnatural. Boston Terrier and Pug would not have happened in the wild, "au naturale."

I'm afraid you have lost me completely.  I have put forward - and read - some arguments against neutering - certainly AUTO-neutering - on this thread... but so far I can't recall any of those reasons being "because it's unnatural"....?  Not sure who you are directing that point at to be honest...

ron2

"I don't want to neuter my dog because that will make him less male." Great, now there's another litter in the shelter...

This statement is fundamentally flawed.  Dogs don't magically appear in shelters because someone, somewhere didn't neuter their dog!  Many factors are involved...  He has to get access to an intact female who is in heat for a start (which suggests that the owner of the female failed to contain her properly).  The owner of the female then has to allow the pregnancy to progress.  Let's get something straight about what's "necessary" in dog-keeping - proper containment!  And that goes for whether your dog is being bred or not and whether he is neutered or not.  MANY people own intact dogs without adding to the population issue, so clearly neutering the dog is not "necessary" to avoid or solve said population problem...

ron2

Also, I think we're confusing what is "natural."

I'm not arguing against neutering because it's unnatural, I'm not even arguing against neutering generally.  What is unnatural or not has very little bearing on my life with my dog since nothing about his day-to-day existence is really natural.  I feed him at times of my choosing, I give him baths a few times a year, I trim his nails....none of that is natural in the truest sense of the word. 

Where "naturalness" does come into play here is how intact dogs would be if left on their own, away from any and all human intervention.  There would NOT be constant fighting simply because the dogs were intact - there may be fighting, yes, most often over resources or to determine pack placements, but those fights happen in packs with fixed dogs as well, as I'm sure many members and visitors to this forum will attest.  

Chuffy

 Like I said before, my first dog got MORE aggressive post-op. 

 I have seen this before actually. Male Belgians tend to be very "flirty" and forward with girls but some seem, once neutered to become snarky and intolerant of other dogs. I also think in the case of fear aggression neutering males can have a negative effect, as your trainer suggested. I attended a John Rogerson seminar and he suggested that fear aggressive dogs not be altered unless their behavior can be modified through training. His reasoning was that if a dog is fearful of humans, taking them to a vet clinic, leaving them, having strangers handle, them sedate them and then having them wake up in pain in a strange place could make the fear issues much worse as it would be very tramatic for the dog.

Liesje

In October I went to the North American Sieger Show, which featured nearly 500 German shepherd dogs from around the world, all intact, all in training or trained and titled in Schutzhund.  I watched almost every minute of the show.  The only times I saw any dogs getting snarky were 1) During the protection test a few people were warming up their dogs off to the side with their own helper and had two dogs getting all revved up in each other's personal space.  Actually I'm pretty sure these were bitches.  2)  I watched a lot of the show from the middle of the ring since I was asked to do photography (stacked photos) and one time I saw another dog turn and snap at the dog behind him/her.  There was no actual bite, it did not escalate, and these shows are known for packing 40+ dogs in a single ring so they literally are running up onto each other if the handler is not careful.  I attributed that snap to the dog's handler not paying attention (the handler of the dog to the rear, not the one that snapped).

 I went to the Sieger Show once too and had the same experience. LOTS of GSDs, all intact and most protection trained and little to no issues between dogs (and none of the "wacky" temperaments towards people seen in the AKC GSD ring).

 I have a lot of intact male dog experience, as I lived with at least one intact male my whole life.

 Our first dog when I was very young was an intact male Irish Setter. We were just "pet people" for sure but had a fenced yard and the dog was either in the fence or on a leash. My first dog was an intact male Doberman mix who lived with the Setter. Then my second dog who lived with the Setter and the Dobe mix was an intact male Collie. Those three lived together peacefully for several years. The only time there were issues was when I tried to introduce an intact adult male into the house - the resident boys did not like the idea very well. None of the males were ever bred accidentaly or on purpose.

 Then I Iistened to trainers and had the mix and the collie neutered because after all it was the "responsible" thing to do and they would be "healthier". I regretted the neutering once it was done though. The Dobe mix had been an extremely muscular dog and lots much of the muscling after he was neutered. The collie's coat changed for the worse and become soft and easily matted, as often happens with neutering coated breeds. And temperament wise they were just not the same, not a major huge change (the Dobe mix continued to try to breed my in-season bitches until he died at almost 14) but noticable to me. The Dobe developed hypothyroidism within a year of neutering.

 The Collie had a lot of complications with the neutering - had some sort of bad reaction to the stitches used which resulted in an infection when resulted in him having to have another surgery within the same week as the neuter. He then had to be put on strong antibiotics and anti-inflamatories. He ended up dying of kidney failure at 6 years old. I don't think the neutering killed him but I will always wonder if the complications from it didn't start the bad chain of events that followed in the next year or so. Collies as a breed are very senstive to chemicals and drugs but prior to the neutering he was an extremely healthy dog.

 When the Collie passed away I brought home an 8 month old intact GSD. He had some temperament issues but I suspect they had nothing to do with his being intact. He ended up having seziures which couldn't be controlled and was PTS at just under 3 years old. I suspect he had a brain tumor. It had been a rough couple of years for me with the dog.

 Then came Jagger my current 6 year old intact Belgian. I like him just exactly how he is and would only neuter him if there was a medical need to. He is the only intact male here with a pack of girls who grovel for his attention, so he is pretty "manly". I show him in conformation, obedience and agility. He finished his CD with scores in the 190s, a week after he had been bred. When I teach classes he holds a down stay in the middle or corner of the ring until I need a demo dog. He is VERY friendly towards people, more so than his breed should be. He has gone to festivals, parades, 4H meetings and used to go to work with me every day. Really he is an all around good dog.

 I worked at a doggy daycare when I got him, so he came with me all time. The business grew and I my work time was split between the daycare and another part, where I could also bring him with me. He was extremely good at daycare but I stopped bringing him because a neutered male Boxer attacked him coming in one day. The daycare owner, always trying to protect the paying clients dogs claimed it was Jagger's fault because he was intact. There was not even a fight - the Boxer grabbed Jagger's head as we walked in. The Boxer had repeated incidents with other neutered and with people, including biting the daycare owner in the face so really he didn't belong at a daycare and it was hardly done because Jagger was intact. But the owner had a hard time turning paying peopel away for any reason. 

 The only dogs he acts super macho with as a rule are other intact male Belgians. He interacts with others of his kind by standing on his toes near them, holding tails high, grunts and snorts, makes a show of peeing on stuff and kicking dirt up with his feet. But it is pretty much just a show and for whatever reason, pretty typical of Belgians. A friend owns his intact half-brother and he is the same way. They go back and forth showing how macho they are - it is kinda comical really. If I have to hold both boys at once, they stop the manly display and ignore each other (only to start again when they are with separate people). We have put them in a small car together one in the back, one in the front and while it is noisey, they don't try to esculate to anything more serious. People in other breeds after having been around Belgians accuse them of being "oversexed" (the girls are very forward too LOL) but even at that, all out real fights between them are not common.

Let me try again. The macho thing about not neutering dogs equalling more litters in the shelters.

1. Macho guy or someone who thinks they can handle their dog intact (and many do well at it.) He keeps his dog intact for whatever reason. I don't like removing organs, I don't want to ruin his manhood (so to speak), I can handle it, etc.

2. Dogs can and do get out. Unless you have them secured. Topped kennel, tight collar and tether. in the house unless accompanied outside on a leash, etc. A male can smell a bitch in heat for miles. And, thanks to the drive in his system to procreate, may get out and find that female and mate. If he doesn't get run over by a car, shot by a farmer in the middle of the night, injured in a fight with another dog (not from the testosterone but from being out there and "trespassing";).

3. Ergo (and a few other latin words) a new, unplanned litter. If you don't think people let their dogs run loose, I honestly invite you to visit my town. Unwanted litters get surrendered or picked up wandering the streets.

Dogs that are neutered/spayed do not have litters. Dogs that are neutered/spayed do not get uterine or testicular cancer. They do not get a herniate perineum.

Maybe to the point of this discussion, I didn't see any more or less aggression in Shadow, post op. But that wasn't why I neutered him. I neutered him to remove any chance of breeding. As well as a guard against future possible ailments. But mainly to avoid breeding. Shadow likes females very much. He still gets along great with females, post op. I would fail most foster and adoption interviews. DW and I have to leave the house to work. I work 8 to 10 hours, so does DW, though not always at the same time. Shadow may be out in the yard for upto 6 hours. He has never gotten out of the yard though he could if he learned how. And it was totally stupid of me to take him, nearly untrained and intact to a dog park. It doesn't take that long for dogs to "tie."

I concede that neutering alone doesn't manage aggression. Training and social skills make the dog, not always the hormones. But I bet, in some dogs, it does help, just as with some dogs, medications help to blunt aggressive reactions while training and socialization can be worked on.

One thing that did change with Shadow, post op, is that he quit humping. Yes, one can train that down to a dull roar but it wasn't the reason I had him neutered. I had him neutered to prevent future breeding.

So, is this thread going to say that it's unfair for a breeder to have an owner sign a neuter/spay clause, to avoid breeding anymore of that line from the progeny? And how are they going to enforce proper containment of an intact animal that no longer lives with them? How many breeders have attorneys on $1,000 retainers to sue at a cost of $10k per case if someone decides not to neuter/spay for their own reasons, not necessarily having to do with breeding, and also doesn't contain the animal in a way the breeder sees fit? If I buy from a breeder and I and over $1k, that dog is mine, not on rental from the breeder. I think most people feel that way. I fear this might spin off another thread. I can contemplate that neutering alone does not cure aggression. So, perhaps, I could state that there are good reasons for neutering but soley to cure aggression is facing some long odds.

What is proper containment? If Shadow were an escape artist, I might have no choice but to build a topped kennel and keep him in there while we are gone from the house. Something others might think cruel but it is containment. OTOH, Shadow is poop-all-over-himself afraid of kennels. Would it be inhumane to subject him to that torture forever, rather than a one-time operation that slowed him for only a day?

ron2

1. Macho guy or someone who thinks they can handle their dog intact (and many do well at it.) He keeps his dog intact for whatever reason. I don't like removing organs, I don't want to ruin his manhood (so to speak), I can handle it, etc.

2. Dogs can and do get out. Unless you have them secured. Topped kennel, tight collar and tether. in the house unless accompanied outside on a leash, etc. A male can smell a bitch in heat for miles. And, thanks to the drive in his system to procreate, may get out and find that female and mate. If he doesn't get run over by a car, shot by a farmer in the middle of the night, injured in a fight with another dog (not from the testosterone but from being out there and "trespassing";).

3. Ergo (and a few other latin words) a new, unplanned litter. If you don't think people let their dogs run loose, I honestly invite you to visit my town. Unwanted litters get surrendered or picked up wandering the streets.

YES people let their dogs run loose.  That's my point.  If all those intact dogs were properly contained it would be a non issue.  (If the female was neutered and/or properly contained, it would also be a non issue)

Strangely, the people who let the dogs run loose are usually the people who can't handle an intact dog, but leave them intact anyway.  People that are a bit more knowledgeable and careful CONTAIN their dogs - often they also neuter for whatever reason.  Like you, like me, like many others on this board.

And as I said before, the neutering crusade has not dented the population problem, because neutering is not mandatory, ergo some people don't do it (sometimes those people are the irresponsible sort who have latch key dogs).

If you have one intact bitch in the neighbourhood and six intact males.  Three of those males are neutered by their conscientious owners.  The other three are not.  One escapes and breeds the bitch.  She is just as pregnant as if those conscientious owners had NOT neutered the dog.  OTOH, consider the same seven dogs.... All six males are left intact and the bitch is neutered.  How many pups will be born?

Neutering actually causes or exacerbates medical and/or behavioural problems - both directly (from the operation and the knock on effects of removing the main source of testosterone) and indirectly (because the owner believes any problem linked to testosterone can only be solved through neutering).  Provided the dog receives adequate enrichment, containment doesn't cause or exacerbate problems.... as far as I am aware.

Just because a problem is linked to testosterone (and/or the presence of testicles), does not mean that removing testosterone is the only - or best - cure. 

Do you, or does any one have a link to clinical studies that support the idea that neutering creates behavior problems? I have to confess that it's a new idea to me, save for this thread. I know that neutering doesn't always solve a problem but I'm not seeing how it causes a problem.

As for the situation that if only 3 dogs are neutered and the other three are not and one of them sires with the one intact bitch means it's the same as if none of the dogs had been neutered at all, I must disagree with that. 3 intact dogs means 3 possible iminent litters, as opposed to 6. And remember, a dog will travel to mate. Or, they could fight to mate with the one local bitch.

I should start a new thread.

ron2

Do you, or does any one have a link to clinical studies that support the idea that neutering creates behavior problems?

I haven't seen any studies on it.  I only report what I've seen with my own eyes.  Some things are given to you in black and white on a page.  Other things are dictated by common sense.  Fear is at the root of many behavioural problems.  The evidence of my eyes and the common sense suggestion of a trainer, points to the idea that neutering can make a dog more fearful, hence creating (or exacerbating) behavioural problems that are caused by fear.   Other instances I have seen and heard of since support the idea.

I started a new thread.

ron2

I know that neutering doesn't always solve a problem but I'm not seeing how it causes a problem.

Since my dog was neutered he has been frequently and repeatedly subjected to being mounted by other dogs who never tried to do so before he was neutered.  In my book, that's a problem, one I spend quite a lot of time trying to fix.  It's not Ben's problem, necessarily, but it is a problem I attribute to the neuter.

If I could go back, would I make the same choices?  Probably, albeit with more knowledge.  Nevertheless, it has had unfortunate side effects.  

Benedict

Since my dog was neutered he has been frequently and repeatedly subjected to being mounted by other dogs who never tried to do so before he was neutered

According to results from a vet in a link I included in the other thread I just started, some behavior problems are not solved by neutering because they are modal behaviors, rather than reproductive behaviors affected by testosterone. That is, I don't think the other dogs are mounting because they think he smells like a bitch. They are mounting as a sign of "dominance" play.  So, aggression may not be mitigated by neutering though, for some, some behaviors that might lead to aggression might be muted. While I am typing this, Shadow is on my lap and I break to rub face in his neck and call him "Pretty Boy." Can I do that because he is neutered or because he's a big, goofy, lovebug? Personality does make a difference. I don't think your dog is lacking aggression because he has been neutered and thus allows himself to be neutered. To say that would give credence to the notion that neutering lowers aggression, which a number of people here have been saying isn't the case. Don't you hate when I do that?

Benedict

ron2

I know that neutering doesn't always solve a problem but I'm not seeing how it causes a problem.

 

Since my dog was neutered he has been frequently and repeatedly subjected to being mounted by other dogs who never tried to do so before he was neutered.  In my book, that's a problem, one I spend quite a lot of time trying to fix.  It's not Ben's problem, necessarily, but it is a problem I attribute to the neuter.
 

But at the same time, Jack, who was neutered at a little over a year, has not been mounted by other dogs since his neuter but he was before his neuter.  He goes to the dog park and socializes with other dogs, but the only dog that mounts him is Sally, and he mounts her as well.  In fact, once or twice he has tried to mount a female at the park.  I intervene the second I see him begin to try and he has not done so since.  He is a confident dog, but definitely not dominant--he defers to Sally on most things around the house and does his best to keep peace with every dog he meets at the park.

Since Ben and Jack are the same breed and I believe around the same age when they were altered, I'm not sure how it can be said that the neuter cased the issue when another dog has had the opposite experience.  Maybe it is neuter combined with personality? 

sillysally

'm not sure how it can be said that the neuter cased the issue when another dog has had the opposite experience.  Maybe it is neuter combined with personality? 

Yes, and that is exactly my point...that the "all dogs should be neutered" brush is so wide that it leaves no room for any other factors.   If neutering can affect different dogs in different ways because of varying existing personalities in those dogs, then it logically follows that leaving a dog intact is subject to those same variations. 

Imagine an experiment in which you could take 100 intact dogs who have all displayed some form of aggression, and an identical group of neutered dogs who have also displayed different types of aggression in the same proportions as the first group.   You can say for certain that it isn't being intact which is causing the aggression in the group of neutered dogs, but it IS being intact that will take the blame for all the dogs in the first group.  Then neuter the first group...I am willing to bet that it will not cure or even lessen aggression in all of the dogs, which means that the balls were never to blame.  There are just too many other factors for it to be a complete "fix". 

I think neutering is probably a sensible decision for most owners of pet dogs, I'm just questioning the validity of neutering ALL pet dogs because "it's the right thing to do" and because "intact dogs become aggressive".  I don't think that it will make a lick of difference in some cases of how the dog will eventually turn out, and in some cases - as with Chuffy's first dog - it may actually be detrimental. 

There are too many types of aggression, too many factors contributing to those, for there ever to be one cure.  Held up against all the other kinds, I'm slowly but surely forming the opinion that simply being intact as a direct and sole cause of aggression is actually responsible for a relatively small proportion of cases.  It IS responsible for some, I have no doubt.  I'm also not saying that neutering doesn't help with other antisocial/rude behaviours, I've witnessed with my own eyes that it does that, I'm speaking solely here of actual aggression. 

Benedict

ron2

There are risks with either choice. And possibly, neutering doesn't solve aggression like we might think it would. But I don't think that's a reason to keep a male intact.

 

If every male dog owner on the planet started off assuming that they'd keep the dog intact for its lifetime and were armed with the tools to manage that - would intact males have the bad reputation they do?  

IMHO, this a completely moot point.  The fact is that the majority of dog owners are not like the people on this board.  They can barely manage their own children much less an intact dog.  Most of the ones I've seen at the park have generally bullied other dogs/got into fights with other dogs.  I've met *one* intact male that has been pleasant to be around at the park.  Jack was recently attacked by our farrier's intact male ACD.  The most dog aggressive dog I know (would kill another dog if given the chance) is an intact male.  Would these dogs act this way with more experienced owners?  Perhaps.  However, this does not really matter, since they are *not* with different owners.

That having been said, I do not think that hormones are completely to blame, but I do think it takes the edge off and can make the dog easier for an owner who is not experienced to train.