Last Chance and I Gave Up.

Dang it, Spiritdogs, you phrased it better than I did. I meant to include keeping the sessions short. A couple of successful repetitions is better than an hour of frustration. I found that worked in music, too. It's better to practice successfully than for hours at a time.  Hours at a time might only mean that the mistakes are well learned.

You have been given some great advice!  I second Spirtdogs book and DVD recommendations!  To be honest I rarely do "formal" training with Ari, the exception being when we work with our trainer (for obvious reasons those are formal sessions).  Ari reads my body language, my emotional state and knows it better than I do - so I need to be very very very very concientous of what "energy" and emotion I am throwing out there for her to pick up on.  I much perfer a very short FUN impromptu training session over something longer and monotenous.  I mix it up to keep her attention, I keep it light and fun - and she NEVER does anything wrong.  If she gives me the incorrect thing I go Uh Uh try again, repeat command and then celebrate/treat when she gets it right. 

I think your dog is very smart, very perceptive and you'll get there! 
 

Now, for a question:
How can I train him to do tricks?

Like I know how I can implement "let go", "leave it", and behavior things like that, but how could I get him to "down", "paw", "spin" etc.? I'd have to catch him in the act of doing that, right?

 I would only introduce one new trick at a time till it becomes solid.  I taught Ari touch by hiding a treat in a closed fist and waiting for her to nose it, then my hand would immediately open and she'd get the treat.  When it was obvious she caught on to that, I added the word touch - then I expanded it to other objects over time.  For shake, I didn't do the capture the moment, I did hands on with her for that.  I started by having her in a sit, and I would just touch her leg that I eventually wanted her to do shake with, and treat.  Then I gradually hold it longer and longer, treating for that.  Then I would life it a tad, then treat, until I got the desired behavior and added the word once she caught on.  She'll now shake on a verbal command only and gets a kick out of it herself! 

I've held off on training other "tricks" only because I want her focus on solidifying her commands she knows with increasing distractions first.  

Oh another trick I taught which has been VERY helpful for us, was teaching her to find and go get her "frisbee".  I did this by saying frisbee over and over again when she already had it, or saying "you found the frisbee" if she went for it on her own.  I then added "go find your frisbee" and walked her over to it and pointed (she'll follow me around).  This took little time to teach (maybe two nights, 30 minutes altogether).  I'm working on naming some of her other toys.  The reward for this is we play with said object :)

yup, for diesel, i think it might be best to try to catch her in the act... it's called freeshaping. you should probably run a google search on it or something. i'd help, but i've never used that method myself...

Rene.E2008

So I've been doing the informal sessions to reinforce Diesel's behaviors that he can already do. And his treat for the behavior is praise and a quick wrestling match.

Now, for a question:
How can I train him to do tricks?

Like I know how I can implement "let go", "leave it", and behavior things like that, but how could I get him to "down", "paw", "spin" etc.? I'd have to catch him in the act of doing that, right?

You can either catch him in the act, or you can lure or shape behavior.

Mary Ray (the one who does canine freestyle) has a book with some simple instructions for routines and simple trick behaviors:

http://www.amazon.com/Dancing-Dogs-Mary-Ray/dp/0600613615

Rene.E2008

So I've been doing the informal sessions to reinforce Diesel's behaviors that he can already do. And his treat for the behavior is praise and a quick wrestling match.

Now, for a question:
How can I train him to do tricks?

Like I know how I can implement "let go", "leave it", and behavior things like that, but how could I get him to "down", "paw", "spin" etc.? I'd have to catch him in the act of doing that, right?

There are many ways of doing it!  

Capturing - this is where you "catch" them doing it.  You really do have to catch them red handed doing it and heap on reward immediately, really celebrate.  You want to fix in their mind what they were doing at that moment so they are very likely to repeat it.  If you have a clicker on you, you can use that to help with timing, but it's not essential.  I would NOT add a cue for this until later, until they are offering it reliably.

I taught my mums dog to "down" using captruing.  He wanted me to play and brought me a toy but I was ignoring him because I was folding laundry.  He was prepared to wait, so he lay down.... and I saw a bit of an opportunity, so I whipped round, happy happy happy, eye contact, engage with dog, toss the toy, play etc.  When I turned back to the laundry, he came over and "downed" again, to "make" me play.  It didn't take long to add the cue.  He is an insanely smart dog and my mum doesn't take full advantage of this!

Lure-reward - This is where you lure them with a treat and then pop the treat in their mouth the moment they do what you want.  Again, I wouldn't put a word on this straight away - because if you do and you get a "false start", you cuold confuse him.... cos you've kinda poisoned the cue.  Does that make sense?  He might link the word to the "wrong" action. 

So, for "down", you might sit on the floor with a treat in your hand and ask Diesel to "sit".  Put the treat by his nose and "draw" him down with it, using the crook of your leg or a low coffee table to encourage him to actually go down to the floor, rather than standing up or backing away.  If you were to say "down" and the dog doesn't go down at all, but looks away from the treat and up at you, unsure - THEN what do you do?  Not really fair to punish him for non compliance because he hasn't been taught the cue yet.  But you may feel uncomfortable letting it go.  Easiest to avoid by practising the bhvr 1st!

 Shaping - This is where you reward for teeny tiny steps in the right direction.  Shaping is by far easiest to do with a clicker, or similar marker (like a specific word, "Yes!";)

Example, for "down"... you might ask for a sit, and then reward for "head dips", or forward movements of either paw.  This sounds like slow work, but it's not as slow as you think and it results in a reliable response in the end, in my experience!

Freeshaping - this is where you let the dog do whatever and just click for pretty much any behaviour offered.  For example, you might just click for anything novel, or you might put an object on the floor and click for any interaction with it.  Then you might start, for example, only clicking for putting his paws on it, and then you might up the ante again by only clicking for climbing IN it, or moving it with his paw.... 

Molding - this is where you physically make the dog do what you want and then reward.  This is a bit more traditional, and traditionally the cue is started straight away.... but I still like to leave it till later, because I think adding the cue too early ends in a sloppy response, even (or maybe especially) with molding.

This might be where you push the dog into a down and then praise or treat.  Or you might have the dog on a lead and put your hand on the lead close to the collar and push down, to encourage the dog down.  I think this is the least pleasant method for the dog, to be honest.  It's how I taught my first dog and I got a really good "down" with him.   But I haven't used the method since, because I have discovered other, easier ways that involve less pushing and pulling from ME and more *thinking* from the DOG!

 I  taught Tootsie to spin right or left and rollover with the Lure-reward technique. I put a name to both right away also. She caught on real quick, she'll do anything for a banana chip.

I've thought about Luring, but won't that look like a session too? Or should I just lure him once a day in a certain "pose"?

I dunno, it seems too difficult right now. I think I'm going to just stick to behavior modifying. It won't be too tramatic on him for now, I guess...

Thanks so much for the info once again!!! I learned a lot that I've never read about in my life. I appreciate it.

 Just a minute or even half a minute of freeshaping might actually help him learn a "new way to  learn" and ENJOY it!  But steer clear for now if you are unsure; you can always try it later.  It is certainly worth a try tho, at some point!

Rene.E2008

I don't think I'll do freeshaping. That'll be too much like a session because that would take too long.

I've thought about Luring, but won't that look like a session too? Or should I just lure him once a day in a certain "pose"?

I dunno, it seems too difficult right now. I think I'm going to just stick to behavior modifying. It won't be too tramatic on him for now, I guess...

Thanks so much for the info once again!!! I learned a lot that I've never read about in my life. I appreciate it.

Maybe it would help to see some of this in action.  It's easier than it sounds:-)

Some people think you should charge the clicker first, so here's how:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYyZeTNJfm4&feature=related

Next, you can start teaching skills, or tricks. Teaching the dog to target a stick can be useful for trick training, and heeling.  Here's what that looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EoYPBg7yhA&feature=related

Here's "spin" being taught using the targeting skill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJBPPUZSeto&feature=related

I think freeshaping is good because it's also a confidence builder. The dog learns that it can learn and earn. He comes up with a rewarding behavior that we shape to what we need, and he thinks it's his idea the whole time. As I said before, I think this is a smart dog with a fast thought train. Maybe faster than some humans. So, freeshaping might be the way to go.

I don't think I'll do freeshaping. That'll be too much like a session because that would take too long

A free-shaping session should never last longer than a minute or so. To start out, with an inexperienced dog, count out ten to fifteen tiny treats, put some objects at random in the room, and click n treat the dog for doing anything with the objects- anything at all. Looking at them, walking near them, poking at them, sniffing them. One of the problems inexperienced trainers often have is they don't reward often enough- every five to ten seconds; they expect too much at first- just cause the dog did it once doesn't mean he knows it or is ready for you to raise your criteria; and they don't split the behavior down into enough small steps. And they train for too long per session. One minute. Ten to fifteen rewards. You'll progress so much faster with five one-minute sessions per day (that's five minutes of training only you'll notice) than with one ten-minute session.

With your dog who shuts down so easily, I suggest training nothing but silly pointless tricks for some months, and work on just spending time playing with the dog and having fun. It's hard to put pressure on a dog if you know it's nothing but a pointless silly trick. People get all serious about obedience training but it's all silly tricks to a dog- you need to figure out how to put yourself into that mindset for all training. It's a game! it's fun! you're playing with your dog.

mudpuppy

I suggest training nothing but silly pointless tricks for some months, and work on just spending time playing with the dog and having fun. It's hard to put pressure on a dog if you know it's nothing but a pointless silly trick. People get all serious about obedience training but it's all silly tricks to a dog- you need to figure out how to put yourself into that mindset for all training. It's a game! it's fun! you're playing with your dog.

VERY good idea, and a really good example of what i meant by working on YOUR OWN mindset!!

Rene.E2008

I dunno, it seems too difficult right now. I think I'm going to just stick to behavior modifying. It won't be too tramatic on him for now, I guess...

I am surely NOT a training expert , My pack is reasonably well behaved and fun to be with so I can offer very little about training. You are getting some great advice from the list members and heck I even found myself making some mental notes while reading so your post helped me as well.

The one thing I have found in all of your posts and I could be 100% wrong so forgive me if I am misreading them.  Is a sense of high emotional investment from yourself  and on yourself. As if you are measuring  everything, your efforts, his achievements, your expectations and kind of rolling all of them into a report card as it were.  As the experts had mentioned some dogs are really soft or sensitive and they are highly difficult to motivate over and over. Other dogs are highly independent, we tell all of our puppy applicants who think they will have an easy to train dog that Ridgebacks may not be the breed for them. for instance "fetch" is a disaster waiting to happen for about 95% of RR owners... They may go get the ball or Frisbee the first time you throw it... then they tend to be slower the second time , usually RRs shoot you a "Hey Stupid" look and ignore the third toss. Why should they keep getting something you keep throwing away?? You obviously don't want the darn thing.... 

So my only suggestion would be to relax.  When showing in conformation the biggest error newbies make is sending all of that frazzled energy and worry down the lead. A dog that works brilliantly for others may then become a puppyish character bouncing up to break up your mood , make you happy or even worse they may slink about looking worried and ever so unhappy... they only know this game makes you unhappy so it can't be a good thing. You mention going to a training center and that you are new to the list. Rather than try to take all of the advice from 3 plus pages of folks who really are great at what they do and trying to mix it all together right away...how about a different mental approach?  Tell us about your goals with the training center you are going to and what that involves?  Give us and your self a frame to help you with. By taking a break and filling us in , in another post you can help everyone help you. Is the training for companion dogs ?  for Obedience? For Working dogs?  Do you hope to work one on one with dogs or teach classes? Right now you are already worried you will have a client dog that you can not manage and you haven't even gone to the center.

When I was a young Nursing student I was pretty great at all of the applications put to me till I hit drawing blood.... what a brick wall!!  I just knew I would flunk out... and OMG I had kids to support and I would be a hopeless failure the rest of my life... then my very awesome instructor took me aside, she promised me she would never waste time on me if I was not meant to be what I had planned to be.  I was still sure the next pearl of wisdom would be a clinical explanation of what I needed to do to draw blood.... ( as if I hadn't been telling myself the same stuff over and over and over...)  Instead she handed me a set up and said " Your X husband was a real jerk wasn't he? "  Whut?? NOT what I expected...  She smiled and told me to picture him when I made the stick, not a buddy, a child ,a little old lady... some one I was worried about hurting.   Honestly the best advice I ever got in school!  I aced the classes, and no I did not make my partners or later patients... even bruise.  ( There was another joke about never leaving bruises when you got revenge LOL)  Like JanetMicheal and others suggested , I had my mental approach readjusted, it allowed me to relax and to give myself the time to work and permission to make mistakes while learning.  Before I just knew if I failed anything I would fail everything. After ... well, I relaxed.  I became very good at what I did without losing the enjoyment of doing it. 

 I look forward to hearing more about the Training Center and about your dog, where he came from , why you chose him or did he choose you?  How long you have wanted to make this your goal ... you know the stuff all of us ramble about on the list  

Bonita of Bwana