Sibling Aggression Fighting just began after 2 years

mandycole24

For now, I think we are going to assume that the older, larger dog (Phoebe) was the alpha, even though the younger, smaller dog (Bella) has shown a tendency towards dominance with other dogs and aggression in the past.

There are as many different opinions on this as there are dog trainers. lol  I used to feel like you, that I should somehow determine who was the alpha dog and treat the dogs accordingly.  I have come to believe that we are not the best judge of this sort of thing.  I now tend to let my dogs determine their own position relative to one another.  I also have noticed with my own dogs that this so called position or hierarchy is somewhat fluid. 

As far as why this is happening now after two years, who knows?  You said you had the Walker Vet checked.  Was that since she started growling and did you tell the Vet about the growling?  If it's not a physical problem then I suggest you start strict NILIF with both dogs.  This stands for Nothing in Life is Free.  Search posts on this forum for complete details.  Both you and your partner must do this with both dogs. Basically it is not giving anything the dogs want without requiring them to comply with a command, such as "sit".  This includes food, treats, toys, petting, especially petting,coming inside the house, outside the house, going for a walk, you get the picture.  I used to always be saying why is my dog doing this or that and a good friend years ago said, who cares why, we'll never know so just deal with the problem.  But I still have a tendency to try and figure things out but I try not to let it stop me from dealing with what I can see in front of me.

There are lots of very good and experienced people on this forum and I know you will get some good advice.  Good luck and stay positive.

Thanks JackieG!  I agree it does seem to be fluid with the dominance, but if I let them determine their own position I will have an all out brawl on my hands and the potential of very serious injuries!  I have been making them each sit when they get their food, but I can do that throughout everything else.  Phoebe did go to the vet after her growling started, that's why I took her.  So I will institute NILIF and hope that it helps, I am sure that it will...thanks so much!!

I didn't mean that you should let the dogs determine dominance by letting them fight!  Sorry, i wasn't clear.  I meant in general, day to day things such as this dog is dominant so she gets to have THIS toy or THIS bone, etc. In other words, we favor or give something to the dog we think is dominant first and then to the other dog.  I hate trying to say all this by typing!  Hope I cleared up what I was trying to say earlier. LOL

Edited to add: You might want to keep both dogs on short tab leads until you get a handle on the fighting.  This way you can quickly grab a lead and hopefully avoid getting bit accidentally.

mandycole24

Now, I have researched a lot and the only conclusion I can come up with is that somehow myself and/or my partner have undone the hierarchy that was in place.  The problem is, we aren't really sure which one is or was the alpha dog.  As research seems to suggest that to fix this, we must go back to supporting the alpha.  I watch for tell tale signs, but it is mixed.  For now, I think we are going to assume that the older, larger dog (Phoebe) was the alpha, even though the younger, smaller dog (Bella) has shown a tendency towards dominance with other dogs and aggression in the past.

Just hoping or wondering if anyone has any suggestions or recommendations that may differ or support this theory.  My partner has a 2.5yr old son that stays with him this coming weekend and I am very concerned that he may be hurt by a sudden fight.  Thanks in advance for any help!

 I don't think it is anything you or your boyfriend has done. My guess would be that the fighting has started due to Phoebe's age but it can be hard to say. I would not, under any circumstances allow them to fight it out. Bitches are known for being very serious when they really get into it and IME with fighting bitches, it is never really over for them. This article will at least help explain interbitch aggression issues: http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bitch.txt

If the water bottle is breaking up the fights that is good.  To me, it says they aren't mortal enemies as yet. lol    I know that there is a lot of belief in bitch to bitch aggression being a fact of life and just have to learn to live with it but I have had bitches and known many others who never, ever showed any sign of aggression toward each other or any other bitch or dog.  Dogs are as individual as people and have to be treated as individuals not as concepts.

I have 2 females who've had their share of fights to, so I know a little of what you're going thru. I completely agree with Jackie on trying to establish an alpha between the two. We even met with a behaviorist and she cautioned against doing that. We did start using NLIF for both dogs and it helped immensely. Still, there have been problems but much less frequently. We don't allow our 2 to be together when we're not there and we don't allow any food, treats or toys to be out when they're together. It might be that this is all about resource guarding and you'll need to keep the toys put away. I would at least suggest that while the child is in the house and if you're really concerned, I'd keep the dogs separated during that time. It's possible that one of the dogs will see one of the child's toys as something to fight over. I wish you luck. It's no fun dealing with fighting dogs.

JackieG

If the water bottle is breaking up the fights that is good.  To me, it says they aren't mortal enemies as yet. lol    I know that there is a lot of belief in bitch to bitch aggression being a fact of life and just have to learn to live with it but I have had bitches and known many others who never, ever showed any sign of aggression toward each other or any other bitch or dog.  Dogs are as individual as people and have to be treated as individuals not as concepts.

 Of course dogs are individuals but in this case, info on bitch aggression seems appropriates (it is after all an issue with two bitches). Plenty of people have bitches who get along fine and plenty others have bitches who don't. My two that are now always separated lived happily together, played with each other and got along great...until they started fighting. Just because dogs currently interact well together doesn't mean they always will. And some breeds/individuals are much more prone to same sex aggression than others. The article I posted is short and well worth a read. For no other reason than to expand your knowledge a bit on the subject, even if you never need the info (and hopefully you never will) :)

I did read the article and it was interesting. Thanks.

AgileGSD

My two that are now always separated lived happily together, played with each other and got along great...until they started fighting.

Mine were the same. Quite honestly, had they fought in the beginning, it would've been much simpler. Sassy was a rescue and altho I'd have hated to do it, I'd have found her a new home. By the time they started fighting, she had stolen our hearts and we couldn't even think of it.

I also wanted to add that when my 2 fought early on, a squirt of water would stop a fight but each fight required more and more effort. Eventually they had one that a full blast hose spray didn't stop and had my husband not been home and heard me yelling...well, I'm not sure what might've happened, but it wouldn't have been good. That's why I never allow them to be together when I'm home alone.

OP - have you had a chance to speak to a behaviorist about the dogs?  Could your vet recommend a good behaviorist in your area?  Having an expert in person observe your dogs might be the fastest choice for you.  (Although I commend your effort to research and seek advice from various sources.)

A pair of bitches in my trainers pack of (then) 11 dogs (10 of which are Doberman) decided they were mortal enemies and are kept separated when not supervised.  They can go months without an issue, but if something sets them off, it's a ferocious fight.  All of the advice above to keep them separated when not supervised and remove all toys/bones/food is totally on-point.  Please also know that proximity to you can also be viewed as a "resource" to guard.  Unfortuntately, with a 13 yr old dog growling out of nowhere, you start to wonder if there's dimensia or eyesight problems... but your vet checked those out.  I think you need a dog behaviorist with a seasoned eye to watch them when these things happen.  Are these becoming more and more frequent?  Sounds odd, but could you leave a video tape running trained on your 13yr old during times when you think are common triggers?  Being able to replay the video might give you a chance to see one dog looking at the other with the "hairy eyeball" that you don't catch until the growling occurs?  It's hard to picture the scenario, so my apologies if this sounds misguided.

 Maybe its the maturity are they same sex?

I would ask that you consider taking them both to the vet. It doesn't hurt to make sure they're BOTH healthy.

It's also possible they're just (in human terms) fed up with each other. Since they've fought before over food, its possible something else is annoying them about each other. You may need to do a complete separate and rotate situation. I would definitely go back for complete checkup and get a trainer/behaviorist to observe them.

Good luck and keep us updated.

I did take them both to the vet but more for the older one to be checked out, but they also looked over Bella.  They are both spayed females and the vet has given them both clean bills of health.  I thought it may have been getting better, but I swear, like this morning Phoebe was in another room, couldn't even see Bella and out of nowhere started growling, got up and came towards Bella.  Bella at this point is trying to stay out of her way but even that is not enough for Phoebe.  I feel sorry for Bella as she looks so bewildered at why Phoebe has turned on her, just a few weeks ago, they were happily laying in the dog bed together and now it's like Phoebe hates Bella.  I am beginning to doubt that we upset any kind of hierarchy and think more that Phoebe just flipped a switch and can't stand Bella any longer for whatever reason.  So yes, my next course of action will be to bring in a behaviorist I guess.  I do not think they fight when we are not home, they spent several day together sharing a run in the kennel last weekend and were perfectly fine, when I get home, there is no sign of a fight, i.e. scratches, blood, etc.  Neither of them is going anywhere and I don't want to make it harder on us to deal with them, so I think a behaviorist might be the best way to come up with a solution.  Bella also jumped the fence last night for the first time in a while, I think she is frustrated with being put outside with Phoebe gets mad.  Phoebe continues to go to odd places in the house that she never used to go, the laundry room and the dining room to sit or lay, which is odd.  I am clueless...