Sibling Aggression Fighting just began after 2 years

Someone else mentioned this but when you said that Phoebe is going to odd places in the house it really caught my attention.  She could very well be in the beginning stages of Cognitive Dysfunction Syndrome.  Lots of info on the net. If it were my dog, I would explore this a little further.

http://www.vetinfo4dogs.com/dcognitivedysfunction.html#Behavior%20changes%20in%20older%20dogs-%20protecting%20food%20-

My first thought was dementia quite honestly. The odd behavior is similar to our old Akita gal who was around the end of 11 early 12 years when it happened. Hers was not aggro based but she was losing hearing and site both and began to get lost in familiar areas and she'd whine or bark. Your older girl could be losing sight and the shadows and such might frighten her so is defensively growling, which seems a challenge to your other girl. If she is  not getting up and staring at, or pursing the other dog...only sitting there growling when she is out of sight....I'd look for eye/ear or old age dementia based causes.

 

Maybe I should take her to another vet for a second opinion.  For the first time ever last night, she growled in the middle of the night in the bedroom, we had to get up and put the other dog, Bella, out and shut the door, again still thinking we needed to support Phoebe in recognizing her as the alpha.  It's just so odd, she can hear and see fine, though the vet did say she may have some beginnings of cataracts, but nothing bad.  It could very well be that she is starting to lose some sight and the only threat she knows that could challenge her or take her food, etc. is Bella so therefore when she gets freaked out she growls and looks for Bella to make sure nothing is going on??  But then why wouldn't think happen while we are away, like at the kennel? Maybe I will set up a video camera tomorrow morning to see if it can pick up anything.  Phoebe purposely has sought out these odd areas of the house like she wants to get away from Bella, she doesn't even want to see her. So I know it's not like she's getting lost and she's gone in those areas multiple times to lay down now, even though she used to never go there before.  To be honest this morning and last night Bella hasn't even really been reacting to Phoebe's growls anymore as in going straight for Phoebe, she just stands there and waits with her hair raised and Phoebe comes towards her.  This morning when Phoebe growled and got up even though she couldn't see Bella, Bella was near me and I had to grab Phoebe at which point Phoebe just barked at Bella repeatedly while Bella just stood there, almost looking at me wondering what the heck was going on?

My first thought would be her eye sight. Dogs tend to get more growly when they can't see as well.

As far as putting Bella out of the bedroom when it was Phoebe that did the growling I think you were wrong there. Why would you correct the child that was getting at yelled at rather than the one who was doing the yelling?

My suggestion would be to have Phoebe go into a down stay when she starts to growl at Bella. Don't give Bella any extra attention but by putting Phoebe in a down stay should let her know it's not acceptable to be growling.

We put Bella out because we were working under the theory that we had disrupted the balance of social hierarchy and needed to let Phoebe know that we supported her in the alpha role.  Now I am beginning to think, that's not so much of an issue.

I do think eyesight might be an issue. It may annoy you but you should consider maybe belling....Bella...lol. a cat bell on the collar might help your other dog to not feel that might be snuck up upon...if it's a sight issue that may help.

Dogs who's sight deteriorate do so very gradually and oftentimes it's fine outside during the day but inside where it's darker or nighttimes/twilight it can be kind of scary for them.

She could also be arthritic and in pain...is she on supp's for that? Most older dogs enjoy a supplement...makes them a bit less crotchety at times. Unless you took xrays at the vets bloodwork and feeling around won't always tell you the whole story when it comes to bone/joint issues.

mandycole24

We put Bella out because we were working under the theory that we had disrupted the balance of social hierarchy and needed to let Phoebe know that we supported her in the alpha role.  Now I am beginning to think, that's not so much of an issue.

Don't feel badly about what you did. If it is a medical issue, then Phoebe doesn't need to be punished either. I'm no expert but I just have a hunch that this is medically related. The behavior is odd and came on quickly, so I'd err on the side of caution and have another vet check her out. Did they do a thyroid panel? If not, that'd be my first request along with a full blood screening (senior) panel to rule out other things.  I'm not sure how they test sight and hearing, but I'd want more than just a glance at the eyes. There could be something more than cataracts going on. It seems that Phoebe is reacting out of fear but the why might that be? Putting Bella out might not have been totally fair to her, but sometimes in situations like this, it's not possible to be fair to both dogs. I hope that you can find some answers cause I know this must be frustrating.

Yes, we could try the route of making Bella a little louder, she has a Quietspot to purposely keep her from jingling but I have a bell from her backpack I can put on her collar to see if that makes a difference.  The vet did not take xrays, but she said Phoebe has no signs of being arthritic.  Phoebe still jumps into the back of the car and is on her hind legs when she wants to smell something high, so if she has arthritis you would never know.  We will be home all night tonight and we can try the bell and look at the situation through the eyes of some of the suggestions I have received to see if we notice anything different.  Thanks for the help!

 

 I don't want to sound like an alarmist, but I would be very concerned about Phoebe's health, not just her eyesight and hearing.  There may be something going on in her brain.  Her behavior seems to have change dramatically in a very short period.  You may want to see someone who specializes in geriatric dogs or a veterinary behaviorist.

I'd check the health out of both dogs what others have stated. About the alpha thing, I use to think that you had to cater to the alpha dog if you ever know which is dog is it but after discussing with my agility instructors - they each have 6-8 dogs. They don't buy that notion of the alpha dominance or hierarchy - rank over each dog. Why? Because the human is the alpha/pack leader it doesn't matter. You dictate policy. They were telling me the dominance things gets too dynamic at times because at one time one will be over the top and the other will back down and vice versa. They were saying its too much work to be watching over them so much. Once they know you're the top dog, the stuff stops.

jdata

Once they know you're the top dog, the stuff stops.

 Sorry this just isn't true. Two housemate dogs fighting rarely is due to the owner not being "alpha". In fact, if you research pack dynamics in wolves you will find that the dogs who generally fight are mid-ranking dogs. In a natural pack setting, when there gets to be a serious issue of fighting between two pack members, it results in one being run off or killed. There is nothing natural about the packs which our domestic dogs live in. Generally people who tell you fighting issues can be resolved just by you "being the alpha" have never experienced dogs who seriously fight with each other.

 

I have been making them sit before they get fed or go outside and also before I pet them, mostly.  Our vet recommended Bark Busters, but it doesn't sound like they will have a solution as it seems it is more for typical behavior problems of separation anxiety, potty training, etc. Not truly odd behavioral patterns.  My friend gave me the name of her friend who is a dog behaviorist, so I will likely have her come in.  Yesterday, I was rubbing Phoebe and did notice she has a small lump under the skin on the front of her leg.  This along with the sudden change in behavior is worrisome, so taking her back to the vet (another vet in the same office, just for a different opinion) is my next move.  I am not sure about the whole alpha thing, previously, Bella was the clear alpha with a chocolate lab she lived with.  Lately I do notice that Bella seems to be trying to avoid Phoebe in the house, one episode last night and another this morning of the same weird behavior from Phoebe.  Phoebe is following us around more, she used to never come upstairs with us prior to bedtime, now she follows us up and even goes up by herself, in conjunction with the other odd habits, so we are certain Phoebe is having issues and the more I see the more I am certain this is not a hierarchal thing between the two, but more of a health issue with Phoebe.  Thanks for all the advice, I may try to get her into the vet tonight.

Good luck and please do share what you find out. Hopefully it's nothing serious and things can be worked out. As I said before, it's no fun living with dueling dogs

Just an update, she has another vet appt on Mon morning, but my boyfriend brought up a good idea tonight.  She has a large crate he used with he when she was a puppy, so we broke that back out, she got in it right away.  Oddly enough though two rooms away I heard her growling by herself in the grate, (I am keeping it open so she can go and come to get used to it and to see how much she likes it).  Bella was with me and didn't budge, Phoebe just laid by herself and growled for 5 min, then she suddenly barked and got out.  No loud noises, nothing to spark any of this.  As I type she walked up, growled and went towards Bella. It doesn't seem to phase Bella anymore as she is no longer really reacting unless Phoebe is close enough to really attack her.

Sorry I'm late on this one... I haven't read the replies yet so sorry if I repeat anything already suggested...

mandycole24

Now, I have researched a lot and the only conclusion I can come up with is that somehow myself and/or my partner have undone the hierarchy that was in place.  The problem is, we aren't really sure which one is or was the alpha dog.  As research seems to suggest that to fix this, we must go back to supporting the alpha.  I watch for tell tale signs, but it is mixed.  For now, I think we are going to assume that the older, larger dog (Phoebe) was the alpha, even though the younger, smaller dog (Bella) has shown a tendency towards dominance with other dogs and aggression in the past.

 

Please don't try to "support the alpha".  You may get it wrong and make it WORSE.  

Listen closely:  It doesn't matter which dog is "alpha".

This is what matters (pay attention!):  That both dogs respect both you and your partner and will take your direction EVEN - or I should say, ESPECIALLY - during moments of confrontation.

So, the fact that they are fighting is not indicative of a problem between the DOGS, but a problem between the DOGS and HUMANS.  Make sense?

Make bothe dogs "Learn to Earn" and dole out priveleges based on behaviour - so first to sit is the first to get fed for example, the one who waits politely gets attention, the one who jostles rudely is ignored.  Still make sense?

Is either dog spayed?

I should warn you that female-female aggression is very tricky to resolve.  Even experienced dog owners in a situation like yours have finally decided to either "crate and rotate" or rehome one of the dogs.  I think you should get professional help on board, but vet your behaviourist carefully, as the field is not regulated.... and essentially - listen to your gut.  If something doesn't sit right with you, find another behaviourist.