Biting Continues

Two words - chain leash.  don't let this dog learn to chew through a leash and get her freedom that way.

I think at this point I'd go to putting a leash on her and forget about the playing and training other than CONTROL YOURSELF type stuff.  This is not a baby puppy.  You will not harm her by laying off the happy happy good dog stuff.  This dog has learned how to manipulate you though I can't tell without eyes there, what she's getting out of this. 

Think police dog control.  STRICT obedience.  NILIF.  Yes, do include tug training but it will need to be calm, calm, calm.  "Take it.  Out.  Take it.  Out."

You can always let up the control later and have some fun.  But if you don't get a handle on this now you will damage your relationship permanently, I am afraid.
 

Tonight I've been bit multiple times (until I threw the leash on, and that made catching her easier - I have a hard time bending down quickly enough to grab her).

 bending over a dog and trying to grab/ catch her strongly suggests Play to a dog and is certainly rewarding her for her biting behavior. Does she know any commands like DOWN or GO TO BED you could use to get her under control? We use those plastic-coated metal cables as puppy drag lines. If you can tell she's about to lose it, make her DOWN or GO TO BED before she loses it; if you miss the moment, when puppy goes to bite you, you scream EH, and I mean really scream, loud enough to alarm the neighbors, you physically freeze and order the pup to DOWN and stomp on the cable if necessary to get her back under her own and your control in a DOWN. I believe you used to let her have toys when you "isolated" her? I hope they've all gone bye-bye and you're doing really strict NILIF. The problem with "isolation" is generally dogs don't associate consequences with their actions unless the consequence occurs within a second or two of the action. So dog bites, it takes you ten minutes to catch dog, which dog thinks is you playing a fun game with dog, and then putting dog in isolation- no way it'll work. The usual "isolation" people do with young puppies is to withdraw attention after the yelp- person instantly freezes and ignores pup, or perhaps marches solemnly out of the room ignoring pup. The "isolation" of ignoring occurs within seconds of the dog's action. But anyway this is not a puppy engaging in puppy biting anymore- this is a strapping young dog engaging in a very dangerous behavior. On second thought, maybe something like an air-horn instead of screaming; something to startle the dog and let a little thought creep in. It sounds somewhat like you've spent most of his puppyhood trying hard to not get him excited instead of teaching him how to think while excited. Controlled tug games are great for that- in the midst of tug frenzy the dog has to be able to OUT and to perform obedience commands.

 I noticed where you were from, so I PM'd you.

 Oh gosh we NEVER let her have toys in isolation - isolation is a room with nothing for her to interact with.  At night or when I know she is over tired, I will catch her before she gets bratty and settle her down with a chewie in her crate - to PREVENT a bite attack, but never do I give her anything when she's in isolation (which is not held in her crate - crates are for sleeping or special chews like RMB).  And like I mentioned before yelping and removing us from the situation has never worked with her.  Yes I realize she is older now - and this has gone beyond puppy play behavior.  Strict NILF has started as of tonight. She has one chew toy (that's never used as a play toy with us) left out and that's it (b/c I know she'll pick up furniture biting if she doesn't have something to chew that's appropiate and she's never chewed the furniture so I'd like to keep it that way).  All her toys are gone.  They will be introduced as rewards only in lieue of treats for the commands she has down solid (not for something like heel with she just started learning).  Her attention from me at the moment is limited to her basic needs only, which does include excercise outside and mental excercise in the form of training.  Because I do know without the mental and physical exertion, her behavior is 100X worse.  I called her over to me only once for some attention, and only after she had been displaying calm behavior for some time.  Next couple of days it'll be more of the same. 

Yes I also realize trying to grab her to put her in isolation IS seen as a game to her - believe me I am well aware.  Which is why I'm taking the advice to get a chain leash to put on her, since she will chew through her cloth one out of frustration of having it on her in the house.  I'm also bruised head to toe compliments of a dog I am DESPERATELY trying to figure out how to live with, b/c I care for the little bugger with all my heart.  And I feel like dog crap that this is what I have on my hands.  I blame only myself.   I figured I was ready to take on a puppy.  I've worked with dogs for half my life - just none like her.

If I can catch her BEFORE she starts biting then yes I can redirect her attention, usually quite successfully - but if she's already in a play biting frenzy then no I cannot.  She knows the command kennel up (our equivalent of go to bed) but like I've said before distracting her once she is fixated in biting doesn't work, never has - Ari can be obsessive and utterly single minded about things.  I could drop a ton of bricks next to her and she would still be fixated on the biting and getting what she wants from either myself or my SO. 

Air horns are not an option - I live in a condo community with neigbhors right next door - heavens knows they are kind enough people as is given the barking and the crying out we do as is - air horns would probably be the limit there.  

 To be honest, I think the best idea might be to muzzle the dog.  Then, at least you can ignore her for real when she tries to get your attention with that kind of behavior.  And you wouldn't have to resort to trying to isolate, crate, grab, use air horns, or any of that stuff.  Sooner or later, dogs that don't get what they want with a certain behavior will give it up and try something else.  The something else, if you are serious about NILIF, should be something like "sit" or "down".  If you use a clicker, you can still train "hands off" and use squeeze cheese to issue the treats.  I would suggest getting Emma Parson's book, "Click to Calm", which is a nice training progression, despite the fact that she used it for a dog aggressive dog.

Aww, don't be too hard on yourself. It's the hard dogs that teach us the most valuable lessons. One day you will look back on all this and be glad of the lessons she taught you. 

 Well I had a hard time finding a chain leash.  Went to three pet stores and no one had anything!  I'll be ordering one online I suppose.  We are considering a muzzle.  For that I'll need to bring her in to a pet store - so that will probably happen maybe tomorrow night.  I am actually pretty sure of her size, but I'd rather fit her with one.  I actually have a muzzle at home but it's a tad too big and she can slip it. 

We started strict NILF with her as of Friday.  It's apparent she is confused - but she has been trying things to get out attention in ways that do not include biting - such as going to spots in the house where she typically waits for us and sitting down and whining (for instance she is waiting at the bottom of the gated off stairs b/c this is where we come down after going to the bathroom - however she's doing this WHILE we are downstairs).  No, we are not giving her attention even then.  I'm waiting till she's settled down, not asking for attention in some fashion, and then calling her over to me for a brief session (be it play, training, or simply physical affection).  Outside of when I choose to acknowledge her I act like she doesn't exist.  Her biting got worse last night - but I'm expecting it to (after all like a kid whose learned temper tantrums get them what they want they will try harder once suddenly they stop working).  I won't always be THIS strict with her (hopefully) and I will gradually increase how much attention I give her, but right now this is what I need to do for all of us to stay sane.  

I did buy her a tug toy and introduced it this weekend.  It was a good introduction and it will definitively be used as a reward b/c she is ecstatic about it.  All her toys actually with the exception of two chewies that don't get used for play are hidden away.   

I'm doing my best to keep my own attitude where it needs to be - as in CALM, and in control.  This isn't easy for me b/c my life is sorta falling apart at the moment and I'm doing my best to maintain.

There are GOOD moments with Ari though which make all this worth it.  For instance she woke me up early this morning to go out, and I did a little early morning training with her and I curled up on the couch to sneak in a few more minutes worth of sleep.  She went into her living room kennel and settled down.  I waited a few minutes and invited her up on the couch with me.  She snuggled in, let out a huuuge sigh and fell asleep on top of my legs.  Or yesterday when we had a decent romp outside and I was able to call her off some birds she roused (for that she got some stick fetch time - which she looooves, which is good because her idiot human had forgotten to grab the treat bag).  

I also wanted to take time to thank all of you - I know I can sound very defensive, but I have other things going on in my life right now, that I'm feeling a tad out of control at the moment and frustrated.  ALL of your advice is appreciated by myself and my SO.   

I'm still going to pick up a muzzle - I think it will help redirect Ari if we can take her chompers out of the picture.  The SO is game for that as well. 

She IS going to be a fabulous dog - she's bright and I can tell this weekend there were moments she was trying to figure it out.  She started going after my SO more-so this weekend b/c he wasn't being quite as strict with ignoring her, particularly when she is trying for attention by being super cute, which I've figured out CAN lead to a bitey session with her.  Hence why I just ignore her all together right now (unless she bites me, unfortunately then my SO and I have agreed she's too dangerous and it's too painful to simply ignore). 

If I had a video camera I would love to tape a session of her bitey behavior - I think the digital camera is capable of doing short clips - but I haven't a clue as to how to use it or upload it, but once I do I'll shoot a short clip so you can see.  

In good news some of my bruises are gone....   Actually that's not the only good news - the best news is I witnessed Ari thinking about how to get attention from us in ways that did not include biting.  I don't reward whining or the super cute face she'll put on - but I DO reward when she's being calm and out of the way (for instance I was cooking and after she realized trying to trip me wasn't going to get my attention she went over to a spot on the rug with a chew toy and just chewed - I tossed her over some cut up chicken for that).  I'm making an effort to mark that type of behavior as best and as quickly as I can.

the best news is I witnessed Ari thinking about how to get attention from us in ways that did not include biting

That's great - and it's always nice to know that a dog CAN do what you are trying to teach.  The muzzle will do much to alleviate your angst about having her about when you have company, can't pay attention to her immediately, etc.   That said, be sure to acclimate her to it gradually - you want her to think that the muzzle is the best thing since sliced bread.  When that muzzle comes out, here comes the tug, the cheese, the roast beef, the frisbee, whatever...  There's a good printed protocol on how to do that at http://www.morrco.com/.

spiritdogs - thank you for that link - I will defintively give it a read.  I most assuredly do not want the muzzle to be associated with anything bad.  I really want to only use it in a few instances in which I'm picking up she's at her absolute worst.  The worst time of day for her seems to be around 7pm (from what I saw this weekend).  It's after her walk and after her dinner (she eats dinner right around 6-6:30).  This isn't to say it's ALWAYS at that time.  Goodness knows we've had days in which she spent more time away from us than near us.  While solitary helps - it doesn't give us the chance to teach her appropiate behaviors - on the flip side I cannot teach her appropriate behaviors when she is fixated on the biting.  Hence I'm hoping a muzzle will help alleviate the fixation she gets when biting us. 

Fortunately she has never gotten bitey with anyone aside from us.  But I'm also cautious and tell people what they definitively should NOT do around Ari (wrestle with her, get overly excited and high pitched, rough around with her) and I supervise.  However, there will come a time and a person who is not myself or my SO, if this doesn't get resolved who WILL get bit by her. 

This sort of comes from a different perspective but how is she when she takes treats from you??  I taught Willow "gentle" and it was originally for not snapping at my fingers when I gave her something but it translated well to other times when she uses her mouth. 

willowchow

This sort of comes from a different perspective but how is she when she takes treats from you??  I taught Willow "gentle" and it was originally for not snapping at my fingers when I gave her something but it translated well to other times when she uses her mouth. 

She's always been gentle taking food from our hands.  

the_gopher

Fortunately she has never gotten bitey with anyone aside from us. 

I found this to be true with my Heidi as well when she was Ari's age.  I found it very interesting that Heidi was only mouthy with me.  Someone told me that its like she feels that is OK to play bite with family (i.e., me the mama); and she understood that its not ok to be mouthy with others.  I lived with cuts and bruises for the first 1.5 years Heidi was with me.  She is much much much better now and has wonderful bite inhibition.  I think this is THE hardest thing to overcome.

When Heidi was about 6 months old, we had a vet visit.  We had to wait for an hour which was very frustrating (another story, another thread).  There was this very sweet, little old lady who strolled in on her walker.  She sat down to wait for her son who was dealing with her pet.  This sweet little old lady wanted to pet my Heidi.  She called her over and I took Heidi over to meet and greet...the whole time holding my breath (not really...I tried to be calm).  I did say to her that she can be a bit mouthy, and she said...That's ok, I want to pet this beautiful dog. 

Heidi couldn't have been more sweet.  No mouthing, she nuzzled her with her nose and allowed the little lady to caress her.  I was flabergasted and amazed.  My little razor blade filled puppy made me so proud that day.  She enjoyed luvin up on this little lady; and the little lady enjoyed it too.  Heidi proved that she could have wonderful bite inhibition (or no mouthy behavior) several times after that with other people...but continued to slice me up.

It will get better with strict NILF and training.  Have you tried doing what mama dogs do: put your mouth over her muzzle and growl?  I did that one time, and she stopped in her tracks, looked at me and turned around and walked off.  That was amazing!  It worked that one time, not the second or third.  LOL

 I think a lot of dogs like to get crazy and wrestle after dinner.  My Dexy did when ever he was with his best friend Elmo (my parents dog).  Maybe they get a rush of energy or endorphins from the food.  I wonder if changing up her dinner routine might help.  Possibly giving her just a handful of food every half hour?  Just an idea.
 

 This is a very interesting thought.  Another thought; is she fed via a kong, or similar?

Personally, I like to crate after meals for about half and hour.  I don't think after dinner zoomies are a good thing to allow or encourage, even if you don't have a large/deep chested breed.

I have been watching this thread with extreme interest by the way and I think you are bang on the right track.  I also found that responding to a dog's attempt to instigate contact has also resulted in bratty behaviour, even if the dog "asked nicely"; ie sit quietly with pleading eyes.  Insisting to myself that I WAIT until the dog has gone away and MADE THEMSELVES settle down and mind their own businesswas what worked in the end.  Then I would CALL them for a brief interaction.  It worked great; it meant I took control, which they responded to,  it meant I had a great chance to practise and reinforce recall and best of all, it made the dog practise SELF CONTROL.

Ask yourself - How much EASIER is it to control the dog if she is already controlling herself? 

This is where the problem lies I think - you are trying to "control her" at these bratty times, when the truth is she needs to learn to control HERSELF so the episodes don't happen.

 A very salient point, and one reason I suggested the muzzle.  So that the humans can ignore the dog's solicitations and wait for her to control herself without having to fear being bitten while the dog is too crazed to settle.  Young dogs can be very mouthy, but when they figure out it doesn't get them anything they want, it usually stops.  But, if the "something" that the dog wants is attention, and they get it for biting (even negative attention counts as attention), then they are being reinforced for biting.  So, the object is to have the dog get absolutely nothing for biting or being obnoxious.