Biting Continues

I just got a pup and this is my first pup so I may not really have a clue, but when he starts biting on me, I press my thumb down under his tongue, say "no bite!", withdraw, and ignore him for a few seconds.  Since he's usually biting my hand anyway, I've found this more effective than having to yelp like a pup and leave him.  He had 9 littermates and so far the biting has not been bad, I'm hoping they learned a lot of bite inhibition.  If he's hyper and playful I always have at least 2-3 toys with me to offer instead.  He really likes just attacking and biting an old towel.  He often tries to get on my feet or between my legs.  If he bites on my foot then he is not allowed there.  If he sits nice or sleeps then he is allowed at my feet.

The breeder also showed us this thing she does called rub-a-dog.  I've never heard/seen it before but it looked like something that at the very least would not hurt so we've been doing this as well.  She's been raising litters of pushy GSD puppies and using positive training methods for decades so I trust her judgment.  Basically you sit on the floor on your knees and have the puppy sitting between your legs with his back to you (he's in a sit).  You put one hand under his head and with the other hand, start petting/rubbing his head, down his back, his face, chest, etc.  She said their instinct when being pet from behind is to turn and bite so this is desensitizing them to all sorts of touch and also teaching self control.  The hand under the chin does NOT hold the head, but if the dog struggles (at first they will squirm and toss their head), just move that hand with the dogs head.  Eventually they calm down and you can feel the head rest on your hand as you pet them.  They learn that being held and pet does not mean they can bite or turn it into biting-play and for many it becomes a calming thing (she said with adult dogs they may enjoy having a hand under the chin and having their head rubbed if they learned this as a wee pup, as a kind of calming signal from you).  I guess it sort of builds in leadership and trust in a physical way without having to alpha roll or pin the dog.  Then when you are done you give your release word (she says "break!" I say "OK!";) and it also helps teach the release. I've been doing this with Nikon at night.  He starts out in bed with me while I read.  Sort of like a human baby when he is tired he gets restless and won't just lie down and sleep but he fidgets and whines.  I do the rub-a-dog and he calms down, cuddles for a little bit, and then goes into his crate when I'm ready to turn out the light.

Again my experience is brand new and my pup is 8 weeks today so it may not be applicable but I'm going to keep up with these things. 

I use training discs for this type of behaviour (things that nothing else seems to stop).  They are flat metal discs, all the same size, on a key ring.  There is a cloth loop you can loop your finger through.  John Fisher a dog behaviourist from the UK describes them in his book "Think Dog".  They have to be "charged" like a clicker.  It is almost impossible to buy these anywhere. I did see some on ebay a while back.  I'll describe briefly how it works. And I do understand and read that the metal shaker can doesn't work but I think it's all in the charging of the device. 

Get your discs (you could probably use some flat,thin, metal washers from the hardware store and get SO to drill a hole in the middle so you can loop some string thru).  Don't show the dog the discs, keep them hidden in your palm.  With no distractions, get some VERY tempting treats and sit on the floor with the dog.  Show her the treats.  Offer a treat from your hand but be sure and say OK or any word to tell her she can have this treat.  Do this 4 or 5 times.  Then put a treat on the floor and tell her OK.  Repeat 4 or 5 times.  Now place the treat on the floor, close to you so she can't get it before you do, SAY NOTHING.  When she goes for the treat, throw the discs.  NOT AT THE DOG!!!  Throw them across the room away from her.  You want to be sure they make a distinctive noise. Hopefully, she will show a startle reaction and not go for the treat.  Do NOT praise her.  Act as though you had nothing to do with the whole thing.  Don't let her see you pick up the discs.  If she reacts it will be quite noticeable.  If she doesn't react, repeat the whole process.  If she reacts by not going for the treat then you can repeat once or twice.  Keep trying as some dogs take longer than others.  If you are successful, carry the discs in your pocket or hand (without her knowing you have them) and any time her mouth touches you, throw the discs.  Again, not at her.  Most dogs require no more than a little jingle. It's really quite amazing when it happens and I have only seen one dog that this didn't work.  Hopefully Ari won't be another.  There are five discs on the original and they are all the same size.  You want them to nest quietly so you are not making the noise unless you want to. I think it's worth a try with Ari and if it doesn't work, she has not been harmed or traumatized. Ron could probably make some for you with some conduit washers. LOL

Kyda

Maybe you can try when she bites you telling her a 'stop' command then redirecting her attention to a toy or something else to play with. Then praising her for playing with the toy instead of you.

Redirects do not help - Ari has FOCUS and obsession when it comes to play biting, unfortunately.  I do however HEAVILY reward and praise if she comes to me already with a toy - in hopes that she will start linking my happiness to that. If I try to redirect with a toy, she'll take it (she knows a "take it command" in her mouth, immediately drop it and go back to biting! 

If you on the floor with her, get up and leave the room?

I've also held they're lower jaw, or entire snout. When she bites, put 2 fingers on top of her snout, and one under her jaw. Add enough presure to make it slightly uncomfortable, but not painful, and say No Bite, or whatever your cue is.

It worked with Taz, Sam, and Tuck.

I do like the idea of rub-a-dog - particularly if your breeder is USED to working with pushy dogs.  Ari is VERY VERY pushy.  Hence the increasing the NILF in the house.  I've tried the pressing the tongue down - doesn't phase her in the slightest.  If anything the more hands on with her the worse she gets. 

Confession time:

In some of the more serious bites she's given me I've reacted out of instinct and swung my arms defensively and hit her rather hard (NOT INTENTIONAL) - she thought that was GREAT.  *shakes head*.

Ari's been desensitized to touch since we brought her home - as a former groomer, I'm big on handling and touching from a young age b/c it was always apparent to me who did or did not do this with their dogs (unless of course they were adopted or brought home at an older age - no fault of the owners then!).  She actually really enjoys my puppy massages I'll give her, especially after a jaunt outdoors.  She handles being handled very well - which has come in handy in a few situations to say the least.  Unfortunately when she has her crazy eyed look going on - touching her is difficult and at times dangerous if you don't have a good handle on her (she's come close to both of our eyes). 

I do know that some of the WORST times for her behavior are when she's over tired.  I try to keep several frozen bones or kongs ready for a quiet chew.  Particularly at night - this has helped some. 

I really think Ari would have been better off as our second dog - she responds wonderfully to other dogs who have solid stable temperaments.  The SO and I just simply cannot duplicate the doggy language she responds too. 

Funny Anecdote - MAAAAYBE Ari is somewhat getting it because last night she did put HERSELF in the closet when she started getting bratty and I had already done 4 back to back time out sessions with her - she flopped down in there (door open of course) looked pathetic, calmed down a bit then I called her over to me and gave her a meaty bone. 

I just feel bad because I know Ari is frustrated too - it's like there is this big communication stumbling block - and she is in her teenage years or rather coming up on them quickly.
 

misstrouble

If you on the floor with her, get up and leave the room?

I've also held they're lower jaw, or entire snout. When she bites, put 2 fingers on top of her snout, and one under her jaw. Add enough presure to make it slightly uncomfortable, but not painful, and say No Bite, or whatever your cue is.

It worked with Taz, Sam, and Tuck.

To be honest I'm tired of being kicked out of rooms in the house due to her (ok bit dramatic the only rooms she's allowed in really uncrated are the living room and kitchen).  I have left rooms and come back anywhere from 2 minutes to 2 hours (depending on my level of frustration!) - to no avail.  Like I said above hands on methods seem to INCREASE the behavior with her - any other dog I've ever worked with has responded to a sharp no or yelp, or worse case holding the mouth closed and saying no bite (which is what I have used in the past).  

I'm telling ya - she's not my first dog (is my first puppy), not the first puppy I've worked with - and she just responds so differently than any other I've been around.   

 I recall giving you advice on this before - holding her collar and disengaging from her.  How did that go?

Also, folding your arms, turning away, and looking at the ceiling...?  Licking your lips, yawning?  The "hard eye", freezing?  I should note that this should be in the early stages if possible, as she gets ramped up but not in response to actual biting.

A "roar bark" - a very gutteral "AH AH!" - this when the former does not work and she persists in inappropriate play.

What is she fed on?

I'm a first time dog owner so you should take my advice with a grain of salt but these are just some methods I picked up with when dealing my puppy whose now 5 months old.

Ignore her. If she wants attention, and keeps biting you, first get your arms/hands out of reach for her. Fold your arms and hide your hands and turn around so your back's facing her. She might walk around to try to face you but keep turning your whole body away from her. IF she jumps up and down on your back, keep ignoring you. Then when she's calming down/calmed down, praise her and lavish her with attention?

My neighbors who are pretty dog-savvy suggested to me to tap the bottom of their jaw if the dog's biting you. If your hand is in the dog's mouth then use your opposite hand and tap their bottom jaw upwards. It's worked a couple times. You could also wrap your opposite hand around the dog's muzzle, the thumb onthe bottom jawand the other 4 fingers on the top and use your thumb to press upwards into the soft space in the bottom jaw. It's supposed to emulate the pup's mother biting on the puppy's jaw, telling the pup that's enough biting. I've also heard of pushing the flaps of fur on the dog's mouth near the back of the jaw inwards so that it feels uncomfortable enough that the dog'll stop.

i've tried all of these and they all made my puppy stop. I guess it would just a combined effort that he finally understood that it was inappropriate to bite us

I tried almost everything to stop Woobie from this type of behavior.  What finally worked was leaving and going into the bathroom for a minute or two the minute his teeth touched me. 

the_gopher

Unfortunately when she has her crazy eyed look going on - touching her is difficult and at times dangerous if you don't have a good handle on her (she's come close to both of our eyes). 

I do know that some of the WORST times for her behavior are when she's over tired.  I try to keep several frozen bones or kongs ready for a quiet chew.  Particularly at night - this has helped some.  

What about keeping Ari on a leash in the house. Does she know a settle/relax command? The second you see her getting crazy eyed try the settle/relax command and give her something else to chew on.

It really sounds like she's getting overstimulated at times and doesn't know how to calm herself. Lots and lots more chew toys would definitely be in order. 

3girls

It really sounds like she's getting overstimulated at times and doesn't know how to calm herself

I agree.

When you sense it coming, can you give her a CRATE command? I would not hold her muzzle shut - I've dealt with dogs like this before, and it just makes things worse - touching gets them even more excited. Bingo grabbed my leg pretty hard today (he's about 3months old) and a LOUD SHARP OUCH and he was very apologetic.

Can you redirect her when she starts to get worked up? Like change play time to training time? Raw marrow bones worked great when I had Harley - to release his obnoxious energy. (I of course, fed outside, because I dont' want raw meat on my floor, and it really makes me queezy)

Can you take her for a walk when she starts to get worked up? Sharp SIT, clip the leash and go?

the_gopher

I really think Ari would have been better off as our second dog - she responds wonderfully to other dogs who have solid stable temperaments.  The SO and I just simply cannot duplicate the doggy language she responds too. 
 

Is doggy daycare a possibility?  Might be worth spending $$ on that instead of hiring a trainer/behaviorist for this issue.  It sounds like she is well socialized and doesn't have other issues so she would be fine in a daycare with an appropriate play group.  This sounds like something that she can best learn not to do from other dogs, and it would tire her out.