Biting Continues

the_gopher

Ari DOES respect other dogs body language and correction and will instantly change her obnoxious behavior to a more appropiate one, but us humans imitating dogs is out of the question.

Dogs dont really need you to have a tail and long ears to be able to know what you are trying to communicate, the thing here is that, number one, you have to fight that image of "playfull buddy" he has in his mind about you when you want discipline, and number two, correcting her makes you feel bad about it (which does not happen with real dogs that want to correct her)

I would say put the leash on her and just like when you want to avoid a dog from jumping, every time she wants to bite you you stand up, she then probably wil try to jump to get your hands, at that moment you already are stepping on the leash, she wil try to get your hands but will correct herself, after a few tries she probably will rather not to do it again since she is not reaching her goal after all

 This may be completely wrong but since you have detected it is when she is over tired I would crate her when you see 'the look' .  Bugsy has only recently discovered going and laying down because he is tired (at 3!) Up until he was about 1.5 we HAD to crate him when he would turn into what I called 'devil dog' - it didn't happen often after the age of a year but still happened.  He was completely out of control and a royal pia.  When we put him in his crate he would fall asleep instantly.  Sometimes I still do a version of this when he is absolutely exhausted and kind of strung out.  I just put him in the room with me or gate him in the bedroom and he falls asleep.  If I don't contain him he will get crazier and crazier.

He never felt punished - we would give him a small treat for going in his crate and he was out by the time you closed the door.  I think this really helped him develop an off button.  Some dogs - to me- are like toddlers and just get overtired and very difficult.  Therefore it is naptime

I am away until tomorrow and apparently he was giving DH a hard time, I told DH to do no exercise or training with him today and just let him sleep all day (DH was at work).  He said he was much better tonight.

You'll find the right trigger for her and then managing her will be much easier

good luck

how do you play with her? one important thing you must teach a puppy is that play with people occurs in a different format than play with dogs. Someone put out a book recently on games to play with dogs, might be worth a look. Does she show good bite inhibition with other dogs, or do they often yelp and object to her wrestling with them? and if it's "overtired puppy zoomie behavior" pop that puppy into bed before she manifests it. Working dogs often don't come with an off switch, will keep going until they drop dead from heat stroke or exhaustion, so you have to notice when they have had enough and enforce that "turn off". And do not get another dog now, you'll regret it.

Liesje

Is doggy daycare a possibility?  Might be worth spending $$ on that instead of hiring a trainer/behaviorist for this issue.  It sounds like she is well socialized and doesn't have other issues so she would be fine in a daycare with an appropriate play group.  This sounds like something that she can best learn not to do from other dogs, and it would tire her out.

Right now the funds are a tad tight - but they should be easing up in the near future (hopefully) but it is most certainly on the radar (bonus the training facility we are going to runs a daycare center and their rates are very reasonable).   She is GREAT at responding to other dogs, lousy responding to the people (or rather we cannot seem to find a way to demonstrate to her that the humans need the same level of respect).  Last night was our trainer night (introducing a heel yaaaay!) and he got to see her in action (aka BRATTY) and we mentioned that she now goes into her solitary confinement area herself with an attitude that says (and I hate to humanize her) well now you can't punish me b/c I'm already here. 

He's going to talk to the owner of the facility (who we have dealt with before for her biting) for some alternatives since he's less familiar with THIS type of EVERYTHING IS FUN who cares if the owners cry out in pain type of attitude - but the owner is very familiar with her breed (and the retriever breeds in general) and these types of "quirky" behavior problems (quirky b/c there is nothing malicious about her).  

I do want doggy day care for her at that facility b/c they will be able to work with her pairing her up with other dogs appropriately (a submissive dog for example would be a BAD idea - you give Ari an inch to walk all over you and have her way and she will take it).  Doggy play groups should be starting soon - and the place that runs them takes care to match dogs up appropriately, plus again it's with the training facility we are going to so they are well aware of the particulars of Ari. 
 

espencer

the_gopher

Ari DOES respect other dogs body language and correction and will instantly change her obnoxious behavior to a more appropiate one, but us humans imitating dogs is out of the question.

 

Dogs dont really need you to have a tail and long ears to be able to know what you are trying to communicate, the thing here is that, number one, you have to fight that image of "playfull buddy" he has in his mind about you when you want discipline, and number two, correcting her makes you feel bad about it (which does not happen with real dogs that want to correct her)

I would say put the leash on her and just like when you want to avoid a dog from jumping, every time she wants to bite you you stand up, she then probably wil try to jump to get your hands, at that moment you already are stepping on the leash, she wil try to get your hands but will correct herself, after a few tries she probably will rather not to do it again since she is not reaching her goal after all

kpwlee

 This may be completely wrong but since you have detected it is when she is over tired I would crate her when you see 'the look' .  Bugsy has only recently discovered going and laying down because he is tired (at 3!) Up until he was about 1.5 we HAD to crate him when he would turn into what I called 'devil dog' - it didn't happen often after the age of a year but still happened.  He was completely out of control and a royal pia.  When we put him in his crate he would fall asleep instantly.  Sometimes I still do a version of this when he is absolutely exhausted and kind of strung out.  I just put him in the room with me or gate him in the bedroom and he falls asleep.  If I don't contain him he will get crazier and crazier.

He never felt punished - we would give him a small treat for going in his crate and he was out by the time you closed the door.  I think this really helped him develop an off button.  Some dogs - to me- are like toddlers and just get overtired and very difficult.  Therefore it is naptime

I am away until tomorrow and apparently he was giving DH a hard time, I told DH to do no exercise or training with him today and just let him sleep all day (DH was at work).  He said he was much better tonight.

You'll find the right trigger for her and then managing her will be much easier

good luck

I am getting VERY good at reading her and at night I do break out frozen chewies b/c I do know she'll get bratty if she starts getting tired.  She's much better when physically exercised - even even if she pushed herself to the limit physically running around (off leash so she can set her own pace) she's calm afterwards - so I get very baffled when after a good romp she breaks into the crazies with us.  More than anything it's like she's trying to CONTINUE the fun with us in this inappropriate way.   

mudpuppy

how do you play with her? one important thing you must teach a puppy is that play with people occurs in a different format than play with dogs. Someone put out a book recently on games to play with dogs, might be worth a look. Does she show good bite inhibition with other dogs, or do they often yelp and object to her wrestling with them? and if it's "overtired puppy zoomie behavior" pop that puppy into bed before she manifests it. Working dogs often don't come with an off switch, will keep going until they drop dead from heat stroke or exhaustion, so you have to notice when they have had enough and enforce that "turn off". And do not get another dog now, you'll regret it.

Play with us is very structured.  No tug, no wrestling, no rough housing - she becomes obnoxious, play stops (aka I drop what we are doing and become a boring person and ignore her).  We are teaching her to retrieve, and she's starting to really get it - including the drop the toy part so we can throw it again!  I will definitively pick up any books on games to play with dogs!  I started to teach her the "hide and seek" game but it is limited because there's not too many places downstairs we can do this with - and she tends to bolt up and down the stairs and she's clumsy to all heck to say the least - so I'm hesitant expanding the game time to include upstairs for that reason (though I may give it a trial run).  

She actually plays very nicely with other dogs - her play style tends to be rough, but when match with another rough and tumble type dog they have a blast with very few if any incidents.  

Oh no not getting another dog now ( I do not wish to destroy my life and what grip on sanity I may currently have)- definitively not - we just thought that she would probably have had an easier time of it (including us) with an already established older dog in the house since she reads dogs far better than us (b/c her humans are doing their best to speak dog to her) since it's her humans that are having the problems teaching her pack rules - whereas she responds to other dogs very nicely indeed (though she has her obnoxious puppy moments still). 

You nailed it with the "turn off".  She will go till she collapses and it's teaching that "enough now" is where we are struggling. 
 

why no tug? tug is a great intense physical game, the dog's mouth is occupied with a toy thus safer for you plus he gets to bite down on something. I would agree that roughhousing with this dog is not a good idea.

 Tug is something that maybe later we (or maybe now actually that her focus is getting better each day) we can introduce tug as a "reward" based game for being super good.  Tug tends to get her really riled up we have found.  So in the interest in keeping our skin and clothing intact we just haven't play tug with her.  But maybe if it's something super special we use as a reward that may be a game she responds greatly too in reward for appropriate behaviors.

the_gopher

kpwlee

 This may be completely wrong but since you have detected it is when she is over tired I would crate her when you see 'the look' .  Bugsy has only recently discovered going and laying down because he is tired (at 3!) Up until he was about 1.5 we HAD to crate him when he would turn into what I called 'devil dog' - it didn't happen often after the age of a year but still happened.  He was completely out of control and a royal pia.  When we put him in his crate he would fall asleep instantly.  Sometimes I still do a version of this when he is absolutely exhausted and kind of strung out.  I just put him in the room with me or gate him in the bedroom and he falls asleep.  If I don't contain him he will get crazier and crazier.

He never felt punished - we would give him a small treat for going in his crate and he was out by the time you closed the door.  I think this really helped him develop an off button.  Some dogs - to me- are like toddlers and just get overtired and very difficult.  Therefore it is naptime

I am away until tomorrow and apparently he was giving DH a hard time, I told DH to do no exercise or training with him today and just let him sleep all day (DH was at work).  He said he was much better tonight.

You'll find the right trigger for her and then managing her will be much easier

good luck

 

I am getting VERY good at reading her and at night I do break out frozen chewies b/c I do know she'll get bratty if she starts getting tired.  She's much better when physically exercised - even even if she pushed herself to the limit physically running around (off leash so she can set her own pace) she's calm afterwards - so I get very baffled when after a good romp she breaks into the crazies with us.  More than anything it's like she's trying to CONTINUE the fun with us in this inappropriate way.   

I suppose what i was getting at is if you KNOW when she is on the verge of breaking into the crazies that is the point to crate her.  Crate her with frozen chewies is you like but I wouldn't let her get to the 'crazies' point.  I understand completely and can assure you that to this day physically and mentally exercising Bugs is our daily regime but he will go until he dies and I don't mean sleeps.  Once I realized that he would never say 'enough' I managed when he was in need of rest.  That was a huge turning point in our relationship.  He is still absolutely nuts BUT he has begun to understand that he should chill out if he is tired.  He gets overstimulated and overtired and that is when we have a HUGE problem.

Just try resting her BEFORE she gets to the 'crazies' - essentially teach her the off button

I agree.  I'd go to tug.  Do it in combination with obedience.  Down, tug as reward.  Sit, tug as reward.  Long stay, tug as reward.  Do clicker training with the tug as the reward.  This dog is telling you what motivates her!  I'm not sure whether you intend to do sports with her, but shaping this reinforcer now will help you through her lifetime.

It's a good time to train a time out, too.  Give her a mat to go to and train her to go there and remain there on command.  It is totally okay for a dog like this to sit and chill.  It's not true that working dogs don't come with an off switch - the problem is that you have to help them learn to use the one they are bred with, assuming they were truly "working bred" and not actually "sport bred" which is a different thing (all go and no stop). 

Tug is something that maybe later we (or maybe now actually that her focus is getting better each day) we can introduce tug as a "reward" based game for being super good.  Tug tends to get her really riled up we have found.  So in the interest in keeping our skin and clothing intact we just haven't play tug with her.  But maybe if it's something super special we use as a reward that may be a game she responds greatly too in reward for appropriate behaviors.

oh perfect. This is a perfect opportunity to teach her self control!  Ask for a self-control behavior like sit or down, offer the tug as a reward. Tug for a few seconds only, ask her to out. Ask for another behavior. If she gets too riled up, or doesn't have enough self-control to out or perform an obedience behavior while playing an intense game, the game ends. High-drive tug motivated dogs catch on quick to this one.

 I think tug is a great reinforcer for some dogs.  Working dogs have lots of drive, so don't be surprised if the dog hangs on the object a bit longer - it's really hard for them to "out" sometimes, because they are so obsessed with it.  I taught Sequoyah to "drop" by using a trade object or food.  Now, she simply does it, knowing that the frisbee will fly through the air again really soon if she does.

Argh! No tug?? I don't even have a puppy that is particularly riled about tug, but I still don't know how I'd live without it. It's a lifesaver when he starts to bite too hard. He's usually not too bad about biting, but if he gets excited he just goes to town and he hears you yelping, but would just rather not bite more softly. I've found that cracking down on him at that point just makes him frustrated and sets him up to fail. Which makes us cranky. It makes sense to me to give him an appropriate outlet for that need to bite and tug works pretty well. What works even better is a big padded hand puppet we got. He is delighted to wrestle and bite that instead, and he gets the added bonus of having one of us playing with him in the process. His puppet is in a bit of a sad state at the moment and he bites hard enough that it still hurts sometimes through the padding. We have turned the hand puppet game into a bit of tug and a bit of fetch. 

Last night he got kicked out of the house twice in about 10 minutes for attacking my feet while I was trying to cook up some rissoles (for him, mind you). I didn't think it was really instantaneous enough to make much sense to him, although it did work. Don't know if he understood or if he just calmed down from being away from all the fun.

Incidentally, we are having worse problems with grooming nibbles than outright bites. He just doesn't seem to get that those little nibbles pinch and actually hurt more than his bites usually do. He seems to think that he's being as gentle as possible and can't possibly refrain from any mouth contact at all. Has anyone else experienced grooming nibbles?

 To say tonight has been a bad night would be an understatement.  She's now to be leashed (unfortunately she CHEWS said leash which is why we haven't done this, but oh well).  I attempted a little short game of tug and that went OK, I used it in lieu of treats for commands she knows solidly like sit and down.  But for the better part of the night she's been isolated.  She's broken skin on the back of my leg and I have several new bruises. Thankfully the broken skin bite is not overly serious.  Small puncture wound, but hurts like heck.  We both have a hard time catching her (no we do not chase after her at all), hence why we are risking her eating her leash now. 

Isolating her doesn't seem to be working - or maybe she's getting worse before it'll get better (maybe I'm just reaching there).  To say I'm at my wits end would be an understatement.  I'm sore, literally beat up and doing my best to remain calm. 

I will be honest I am at the point where I dread coming home at night - b/c this is really par for the course.  Every night dealing with the same thing since shortly after we brought her home, has frayed my emotions.  So frustrating.  I've dealt with bitey pups before and I've never encountered ANY who would continue biting after a loud yelp and taking away attention.  I spent 5+ years grooming dogs and was bit only twice - both times not serious. Tonight I've been bit multiple times (until I threw the leash on, and that made catching her easier - I have a hard time bending down quickly enough to grab her). Of course now she's chewing madly at her leash ugh - this is a dog who will ingest anything so we need to be careful!

I'm not giving up on her - but I will be honest I'm worn down.