Letting dogs *work it out*

ron2

DPU

Has anyone ever seen this, two dogs fighting and then another dog joins in to attack the aggressor?  My observation has been the other dogs stand and watch while the two dogs *work it out*.

A most delicious point to make. Which makes me wonder why it is necessary to have dogs together where one has to push on another and the other has to give calming signals. Sure, they have company but it's like living with a bully. What is the quality of that life? Just a side thought.

 

My best this is less bulling than it is "his way".  Brooke isn't a bully persay but she is the initiator of all play.  She is very vocal as well, growling and barking and snarling while she is jumping, pulling on Riv's collar and just saying come on!!!   Not knowing the dogs it would surely look like bullying.  Bullying to me would if he was clearing picking a fight each time.

DPU

How do you know if you have a problem until the problem is first presented to you.  How can you deal with a dog issue without having a dog with the issue.  Necessity is the mothing of invention.  Dire situations inspire ingenious solutions. If worse comes to worst, people will apply all their imagination and skill to deal with the problem.  Once the problem is resolved, then countless others will benefit from the solution.

That's a good point, too. As the surgeon says, let's operate and find out. You may not always know in an introduction how dogs will act with one another. Or, they get along fine, initially, until one commits a faux pas to the other one's sensibilities. I thought of your reasoning after I had posted my question.

I'm sure there's cases where dogs were sweethearts by themselves but put together, they clash and explode. Others, which might seemed destined to cause trouble, butt heads one time and sort out each others' limit and are completely cool afterwards. And all the variations in between.

Now, I'm going to have to go back read where you probably described the outcome of what looked like an overt move.

JackieG

I don't agree with the bully statement by ron2 per se because my female is quite the bully in her play with other dogs but she never crosses the line to aggression and the other dogs never refuse to play with her even though she is quite the pushy, bully type dog.

How long does it take new dogs to get used to her style of play? Each dog is an individual. Shadow reacts differently with different dogs. I've seen a few dogs get pushy with him and he returned fire. So, another dog, even just playing "dominant" might get more than they bargained for until he knows them better. Which is not to say that he can't handle being with a pushy dog. His puppyhood friend was a Jack Russell Terrier who would charge Shadow in play. Shadow would let him eat from his bowl. Shadow was 4 times Duke's size and could have snapped him in two if he thought it was necessary. But a doesn't always equal b in social scenes. Just because he got along fine with Duke doesn't mean he loves all JRTs.

Then again, even though the last pictures would give me cause for concern, the hound did not return with foul intent, though he would have possibly had the right to do so. But that Mastiff kept concentrating on the hound. While I might let some dogs work out some things, there will probably be a point where I am going to step in and change the scene. The dog's natural environment is with me and I will be a factor in that environment. And I'm not going to let bad things happen to the dogs, even if that means I must separate them.

And that's probably from my upbringing. We're going to do it my way.

ron2

And I'm not going to let bad things happen to the dogs, even if that means I must separate them.

I feel this same way and must admit I probably err on the side of caution too much. What I was wondering when looking at the pictures is what if things had gone the other way? Would you (DPU) be able to break up a fight between them. Those are some large, strong dogs and if the others had joined in, it could've been ugly.

I never used to worry about dog fights until my 2 started having them and now I'm neurotic about preventing them. There was one fight that happened when DH was on the far side of the house and rather than run and get his help (dumb idea), I tried first using a can of direct stop, then turning the hose on full-force, and nothing helped. Had DH not heard my yelling, there'd have been nothing more I could've done on my own. Both had some wounds from the fight and Sassy's lower lip had a 3" gash in it. I recognize that my fear is now a trigger and that gives me a huge disadvantage, so maybe it's your confidence that keeps things cool and calm.

luvmyswissy

I agree with SD's on this one.  If the hound did not turn away there would have been a problem.  In my house my Brooke is your bullmastif and River is your hound.  She is always posturing, straight and stern, using her head and butt to push him around.  He just ignores, turns and walks away.  But after months of observing it is clear that this is her way of initiating play. 

Sally does this with Jack--only he might ignore but does not growl at her.  She can usually eventually convince him to play if he is not into it right away (therefore if his elbow has had enough that day I will interfere). 

JackieG

These pictures and the replies are a great example of why it is almost impossible IMO to give advice without witnessing the behaviour in person.  I responded that I would have broken things up but as it turns out there was no need and DPU could see that because he was there. 

First no one asked for advice and there is no one right answer.  You interrupt the dogs based on what you see and your gut feeling of how it is going to play out.  There is no way of knowing when the situation would turn so one has to be prepared for that.  The entire pack met a half hour prior and all went ok.  The photos are from the 2nd stage of interaction when introducing a new dog to an existing pack.  This was a more complicated introduction since I was introducing two dogs to the existing pack, the Mastiff and Collie mix who were a pack by themselves and they have been together for years.  It did not surprise me that the Mastiff singled out the hound.  The 1st photo showed the Mastiff singling out one dog out of many.  The 2nd photo showed the approach.  The 3rd photo showed the Mastiff displaying all that he has.  The 4th photo showed the easing up of the situation. And the 5th photo showed the Mastiff's way of initiating play and only a dog that knows the Mastiff would respond back, the hound did not know this. 

You did not have to witness the behavior in person to know the outcome.  The photos showed more than I actually saw.

cakana

What I was wondering when looking at the pictures is what if things had gone the other way? Would you (DPU) be able to break up a fight between them. Those are some large, strong dogs and if the others had joined in, it could've been ugly.

Yes I am confident I would have been able to stop a fight if it broke out.  I had a broom in my hand all the time. 

ron2

Which makes me wonder why it is necessary to have dogs together where one has to push on another and the other has to give calming signals. Sure, they have company but it's like living with a bully. What is the quality of that life? Just a side thought.

I agree with this, why the Mastiff is given the opportunity to be rude? Sure, the hound gave calming signals back but what if the next time the hound does not want to put up with it? Why let anybody feel the stress of being on a situation like this even if they know how to defuse it? they should not be put under that stress in first place. The Mastiff should learn that approach is not welcome and most important, if that behavior is not corrected (because the other dogs "worked it out";) what will happen when the Mastiff finally finds a forever home and the owners dont know how to react towards something like that? What if the forever owners have another dog at home or adopt another dog after the Mastiff and that another dog wont put up with that kind of behavior? Thats why the forster dogs get returned to the forster homes, because behaviors like this were never corrected, not because these dogs knew how to handle it (after being put under stress) that means other dogs will. To ensure the success of a forever home we need to think about all the variables out there, not only the ones we have in our own home

espencer

I agree with this, why the Mastiff is given the opportunity to be rude?

I guess you did not read my response to Ron2's quote.  You seem to be taking on more and more of a Mudpuppy type approach that always assumes there is no beginning.  So you have a crystal ball that made you aware before hand that the up and coming behavior, not exhibited yet, was going to be rude?  You asked for more pictures of before and after the 5 and I provided it.  Yet, you still avoided answering the question, at what stage would have interrupted the dog, a dog that you only met an hour previous and appeared at first during initial introduction, was great with other dogs.  And while we are on it, how would you interrupt and, you also stated you would correct, how would you correct a 115lbs Bull Mastiff, thats Bull Mastiff, not Mastiff, not a Boxer....big big big difference....I also suggest you look up the breed description of Bull Mastiff.

How are we as humans meant to know if behaviour is rude or not? It depends on the dog. When Jill and Penny first met, Penny hated her. She was clumsy and she'd step on her and smack her in the face with her wagging tail and never seemed to understand why Penny was cross with her. They lived together for... oh, 2 years maybe? Penny learnt that there was little point grumping at Jill when Jill didn't realise she was being rude to Penny. Jill is still not Penny's cup of tea, but they get on pretty well, now, and Penny is always happy to see Jill when we visit home.

My point is, some dogs are inherently socially clumsy. Some dogs are sensitive and never going to like that very much. Some dogs approach in ways that are fine with some dogs and rude with others.

It is my strong belief that dogs should be able to handle rude behaviour from other dogs. You don't always have the luxury of meeting very polite dogs or dogs under perfect control of their people. I let Kivi get between the BCs at the park and their humans when a game of fetch is happening. Many of them find that extremely rude and annoying and tell him so, but the labs don't care. Kivi has learnt that some dogs care and some don't. He has learnt to watch the dog and have a quick think before he sits on their ball and asks for cuddles and treats from their owner. Most of the time. The people that frequent our dog park are generally okay with Kivi being a silly puppy as long as he doesn't steal the ball and walk off with it. Sometimes they shout at their dogs for having a go at him. I tell them not to bother because he's got to learn. And he has, without being hurt or mentally damaged. It is as it should be.

Kivi has now learnt what is usually considered rude and what is okay, but every dog is different and some dogs think something that is normally okay is not. He's been told off for using his paws in play, which completely mystified him and took him a couple of mistakes to start realising what was happening. When all is said and done, who am I to say what is rude behaviour and what is not? It depends on the two dogs in the interaction. And my dogs have to learn how to tell if they are being rude or not, and who better to teach them than dogs who can communicate so much better than I? Penny has her ways of dealing with rude dogs, but interestingly, if one such dog approaches Kivi, she barks at them. She doesn't think he should lie down and put up with it. She's a bossy boots.  

Excellent post, Corvus. I also agree with Espencer, somewhat, hence my earlier comment that the dogs must trust me, humans are part of their natural environment, and it is my duty to see that nothing bad happens to them, even if that means segregation or some means of breaking up a fight.

To answer DPU's question of how would you break up a fight with a Bull Mastiff being so big and powerful? Well, obviously, you can use a water hose or a stick to act as a barrier or simply grab the hind legs and pull away but more importantly, if you don't have what it takes to break up a Bull Mastiff, you shouldn't have one around, then. But, as we can see, the situation must have calmed down, thanks to the hound. Many dogs initiate play with a bow, a bit of fancy footwork to invite a chase, maybe offering a tug rope. But our neighbor dogs do initiate play with head on shoulders, etc.

But the point you were making, Corvus, reminded me of the non-linear dog theory, where in each dog has his own sensibilities and an initial meeting is also a building of a vocabulary common to the two dogs in question. "This is how far I will go, how far will you go?"

When Shadow got to meet Oz (as in Ozzy Osbourne), a Chihuahua belonging to our friend, Billy, Shadow was throwing play bows and short little hops, rustling some leaves to play with. Oz, scared by Shadow's size and quickness, started getting defensive and snarling and barking, piloerection, the whole nine yards. Oz perceived Shadow's play gestures as a threat and, as dogs regardless of size will do, prepared himself for valiant battle. Shadow, in turn, though confused, also started snarling back, not knowing what the problem was, but he was going to take care of himself, too. I was not going to let them work it out. It would be too easy for Shadow to accidently snap Oz in two pieces. So, I called "off" and Shadow literally stopped in mid-snarl, backed off a step, and I re-leashed him while Billy did the same with Oz. On leash, they were fine. Oz was comfortable as long as he was in leash length of his owner and Shadow was friendly, throughout, anyway.

So, they had a miscommunication. And that is what I think Espencer is partially referring to. Granted, your hound was able to divert or assess that this Bull Mastiff was just initiating social contact in his own bully way. But results could vary in another home with other dogs that have personalities different than that hound. And would it be better to work with the Mastiff to provide different social signals? If possible?

corvus

How are we as humans meant to know if behaviour is rude or not? It depends on the dog.

To a certain extent it depends on the dog but I do think that do have basic social norms.  If they did not, then they would not function well as social creatures.  The tolerance levels on these norms may be different from dog to dog, but that does not mean that they do not exist.

 Out of my two dogs, if approached this way by the bull mastiff, one would likely flash him calming signals and one would likely react by putting on a similar display.  However, just because my one dog will take this kind of behavior in stride doesn't mean I think he should have to all the time.   If he is at the park and there is a dog that is just obviously making him uncomfortable with its behavior we stay for a little while (given I don't think it's dangerous), and then we go do something else on the other side of the park.

Also, I don't also think it's just about what is rude but about what is acceptable.  We were at the barn recently and the farrier has a intact male ACD.  We had Jack with us (who is fixed).  We let them meet--Jack was leashed and the ACD was not--and they seem fine so DH hung out by the barn with Jack and I went in to hold my mare for the farrier.  However, as soon as the ACD saw DH was walking Jack towards the barn, he lounged at Jack and bit him on the side of the head and ear, hard enough to make Jack scream and hide behind DH's legs--a response that is not normal for him.  Jack was not bleeding or anything.  Now, maybe he was asserting his dominance over Jack and "claiming" the barn (keep in mind that this was not this dog's "property" that we were on).  Maybe this is perfectly normal behavior for him around other males.  His owner didn't seem surprised or upset by this behavior at all.  Frankly, I don't care--I find it unacceptable that my leashed dog should be bitten by an unleashed dog when he is minding his own business and not even interacting with the dog. 

In addition, sometimes just because something is a social norm, doesn't make it OK in every situation.  I'll use horses as an example.  My gelding is at the top of the pecking order in his little herd of four.  It's normal for the "top" horse to take whatever food he wants and run the others below him off.  However, when we feed them their grain, we tie Snafu up to eat.  While he would very much like to preform what I'm sure he thinks is his "right" by running the other horses off, if allowed to do so he would end up quite fat and likely more aggressive and the others would probably end up losing weight and getting beat up.  Natural?  Sure.  Desirable?  Not so much.

DPU

So you have a crystal ball that made you aware before hand that the up and coming behavior

No i dont, and because i dont and the dog is not showing me CLEAR playful signals then i dont let him continue

DPU

at what stage would have interrupted the dog, a dog that you only met an hour

At the moment of the approach; before introducing him to the pack i would take him for a long walk, to release anxiety and to form some kind of bond between him and me, to develop respect during the walk, if he does not respect me he wont listen to me

DPU

how would you interrupt and, you also stated you would correct, how would you correct a 115lbs Bull Mastiff

It can be with a body block, it can be with a voice correction, size does not matter, a confident chihuahua could lead a submissive great dane, if your body language shows determination and confidence then you dont need a lot of physical force

You said you had a broom in your hand, well you can use it to form a "barrier" between the 2 dogs

mudpuppy

a common problem with owners who are too quick to intervene in doggy disputes is the conflict escalates over time until it moves from a shouting match to outright violence.

I'm coming in here late, but I just have to say this is one thing I learned quite well the hard way. I really wish someone had told me this 2 years ago. When Jaz first moved in here, we introduced him and Cherokee the "right way" (what I believe to be the right way anyway...neutral territory, short non-stressful meetings, etc.), and they were okay. Cherokee did a little growling and posturing, I corrected her (as in "Hey, be nice!" not like a physical correction), and we moved on... But after a few of these meetings, her growling and posturing started to get worse... Long story short, it got to the point where I wasn't comfortable having them in the same room, so we've spent two years rotating dogs, and I 100% believe it's because I corrected her for growling at Jaz those first few encounters. I'm pretty sure that if I had just let her get it out, they would've been fine together. But nooooo... I had to go and blow it.

espencer

DPU

how would you interrupt and, you also stated you would correct, how would you correct a 115lbs Bull Mastiff

 

It can be with a body block, it can be with a voice correction, size does not matter, a confident chihuahua could lead a submissive great dane, if your body language shows determination and confidence then you dont need a lot of physical force

You said you had a broom in your hand, well you can use it to form a "barrier" between the 2 dogs

I have a slight problem with this. Just a small one. It has been my experience that interruptions like that only work when the dog wasn't that dead keen on doing it in the first place. If the dog is dead keen on it, I can be as confident as I like - which is habitually pretty darned confident because I'm one of those people that don't think of the bad things that could happen until they happen - and the dog says "sure, but I want to" and bulls right through me or darts around me. I'm pretty quick on my feet for a large girl, but they can still get around me, especially Penny who is small enough that I never commit with my physical blocking unless I'm 100% sure I'll make it in time because if I'm not fast enough I could hurt her. My dad tried to block her one day and fell short. She got a foot on her back and he ended up on his back. Not good for either of them! And if it does work, then perhaps the dog was not that keen and I wonder if a correction or intervention was even necessary. That's my slight problem with it.

Today Kivi was hanging out with a large husky that used to be quite dog aggressive. He has since had a lot of work done with him and he's a lot better, but he wasn't keen on Kivi Tarro trying to nibble his face and was grumbling at him. I thought that was great because he was grumbling and not even lifting his hackles or showing his teeth. Kivi seemed to think he still wanted to be friends and he just had to show how vastly inferior he was, so he went down on his belly and tried to lick the corners of Zero's mouth. Zero growled at him again. Kivi kept his tongue in his mouth and tried nuzzling instead. Zero growled again. At this point, Zero's owner, who had been growling back at him throughout this exchange, threatened to give him the correction of his life. Seeing as he was wearing a prong collar (which are all but illegal in this country) and I had no idea just how strong a warning Zero would give before errupting at Kivi and just how unhappy Zero's owner would be with me if I let Kivi provoke an erruption out of Zero who she had worked so long and hard with, I intervened and pulled Kivi away. Having said that, I really wonder about Kivi's desire to keep "pestering" Zero. Kivi is still only young and sometimes his enthusiasm gets the better of him, but last weekend he met his first assertive and somewhat unfriendly dog and there was no licking or nuzzling or any such thing. He stood stock still with everything down and his eyes away until this dog was pulled away from him by its owner (at which point the dog decided it had better make a token display of aggression and tried to have a go at Kivi).

So, I wonder. I wonder if this dog Kivi met last week would have shown no aggression if her owner hadn't lunged at her collar and dragged her away. After all, she was fine until that happened and it wasn't until she was safely held for a few moments that she thought about it and decided to make a big song and dance. I also wonder whether Zero has been "fixed" by his prong collar correcting him when he lunges or if he's just learnt not to lunge. I wonder if the problem was ever that bad in the first place. I will never know the answer to any of these questions, but I do have Kivi's reactions to give me hints. Do I trust that Kivi knows a dog that wants to eat him and a dog that just needs a different approach? He seems too young to trust, but his approaches were still different for each dog and he so loves other dogs that he's spent most of his short life dedicating himself to finding ways to have fun with them. Penny thought Zero was great, but wanted no bar with the dog that approached Kivi last weekend. Curious. How far can we trust our dogs if they have been well socialised?

Something Ron said also made me think of something. I leave my dogs to work out what is rude and what is polite amongst themselves for the most part, but I have my rules as well. I won't stand for my dogs standing over each other when they are eating, waiting for a chance to steal food. I also won't stand for Penny attacking Kivi merely because he was there when she got annoyed. I think it's political to not let Kivi lie on his smaller dog friends at the park and pin them to the ground so he can chew on them. I prefer it if they can get away if they want to. And I'll bring Penny in close when there's young dogs about because she has very little tolerance of them these days. She can't snap at them if she's not standing in the middle of it all where they are inevitably going to jump on her or buffet her. And I'm not especially thrilled with large puppies bouncing on the end of the leash trying to get closer to a passing dog by throwing themselves in that direction so hard they end up facing me again. I make sure that doesn't win good results for pup. So we all have our rules, and in my case, some of them bring dogs under my umbrella of protection in certain circumstances. They still steal food from one another when I'm not there to make sure they don't, though.

Something else to add, imo. Not all dogs will get along with all other dogs. Yes, they are social animals. So are we. But if there's another person we don't like, we normally have to option of getting away from them physically and mentally. Unless constrained, such as being in a military unit. But being forced to be together doesn't make us "be friends." Yet we expect dogs to "work it out." Are we being unfair? Imagine you were forced to live with someone who just got on your nerves constantly. And someone else was constantly trying to smooth things over.

Normally, I will try to ignore a person I don't like and stay away from them. Unless they are impacting me directly. Then I will get in their face directly. I think dogs, being social creatures, are similar.