Letting dogs *work it out*

chelsea_b

mudpuppy

a common problem with owners who are too quick to intervene in doggy disputes is the conflict escalates over time until it moves from a shouting match to outright violence.

I'm coming in here late, but I just have to say this is one thing I learned quite well the hard way. I really wish someone had told me this 2 years ago. When Jaz first moved in here, we introduced him and Cherokee the "right way" (what I believe to be the right way anyway...neutral territory, short non-stressful meetings, etc.), and they were okay. Cherokee did a little growling and posturing, I corrected her (as in "Hey, be nice!" not like a physical correction), and we moved on... But after a few of these meetings, her growling and posturing started to get worse... Long story short, it got to the point where I wasn't comfortable having them in the same room, so we've spent two years rotating dogs, and I 100% believe it's because I corrected her for growling at Jaz those first few encounters. I'm pretty sure that if I had just let her get it out, they would've been fine together. But nooooo... I had to go and blow it.

To be honest, I don't know that what you did was a correction, but more of a distraction.  If she were not already dog aggressive, then maybe I could see that, but if she already was, and she wasn't too fond of males anyway....Did you also praise her for "polite" interaction with Jazz?  Did fabulous things happen when Jazz in in the room and she is behaving properly?  Do those fabulous things stop happening when Jazz walks away?

ron2

Something else to add, imo. Not all dogs will get along with all other dogs. Yes, they are social animals.

I do differ in my opinion to this because of my observations.  Dogs are social animals, they live in a pack structure, and the belongingness need is strong.  Unless, the dog's circumstances, or the environment, or memories, or sometimes breed type, or humans have changed the need's rank and strengthened another (made another a higher prioirty) or a lower level need is not satisfiied such as safety, security, hunger, etc.  When a new foster comes here and meets the pack all at once, they will do what they have to do in order to get through the situation probably acting on a basic survival need and not belongingness.  It is their subsequent behavior, their choices of how they will act toward other members or how they will integrate themselves into the pack.  Very few dogs chose to integrate right away.  They usually stay on the sidelines watching and minding their own business.  The average time for me is about 3 weeks and I have had a foster that took 8 months and another that appeared to integrate right away  I think it is false assumption to make that all dogs will not get along with all other dogs.  That can not be determined until a full dog behavior assessment can be made and effort and time be expended to get the dog in balance, that is the dog's needs are satisfied and prioritized.

DPU

I think it is false assumption to make that all dogs will not get along with all other dogs.  That can not be determined until a full dog behavior assessment can be made and effort and time be expended to get the dog in balance, that is the dog's needs are satisfied and prioritized.

And I think, left to their own devices, dogs that don't like each other would find a way to stay away from each other. But, of course, you would label my idea a false assumption because it is your practice to put dogs that don't know each other together, in the interest of rescuing and fostering them. Nor am I  denying that they might find some way to co-exist. But it doesn't mean they like each other. Just because they aren't at each others' throats doesn't mean they are lovey-dovey. You provided us with an example of a dog that couldn't work it out with others, at the time. What was the solution? Sent to a behaviorist. But certainly not left in the situation of just working it out.

corvus

espencer

DPU

how would you interrupt and, you also stated you would correct, how would you correct a 115lbs Bull Mastiff

 

It can be with a body block, it can be with a voice correction, size does not matter, a confident chihuahua could lead a submissive great dane, if your body language shows determination and confidence then you dont need a lot of physical force

You said you had a broom in your hand, well you can use it to form a "barrier" between the 2 dogs

 

I have a slight problem with this. Just a small one. It has been my experience that interruptions like that only work when the dog wasn't that dead keen on doing it in the first place. If the dog is dead keen on it, I can be as confident as I like - which is habitually pretty darned confident because I'm one of those people that don't think of the bad things that could happen until they happen - and the dog says "sure, but I want to" and bulls right through me or darts around me. I'm pretty quick on my feet for a large girl, but they can still get around me, especially Penny who is small enough that I never commit with my physical blocking unless I'm 100% sure I'll make it in time because if I'm not fast enough I could hurt her. My dad tried to block her one day and fell short. She got a foot on her back and he ended up on his back. Not good for either of them! And if it does work, then perhaps the dog was not that keen and I wonder if a correction or intervention was even necessary. That's my slight problem with it.

Today Kivi was hanging out with a large husky that used to be quite dog aggressive. He has since had a lot of work done with him and he's a lot better, but he wasn't keen on Kivi Tarro trying to nibble his face and was grumbling at him. I thought that was great because he was grumbling and not even lifting his hackles or showing his teeth. Kivi seemed to think he still wanted to be friends and he just had to show how vastly inferior he was, so he went down on his belly and tried to lick the corners of Zero's mouth. Zero growled at him again. Kivi kept his tongue in his mouth and tried nuzzling instead. Zero growled again. At this point, Zero's owner, who had been growling back at him throughout this exchange, threatened to give him the correction of his life. Seeing as he was wearing a prong collar (which are all but illegal in this country) and I had no idea just how strong a warning Zero would give before errupting at Kivi and just how unhappy Zero's owner would be with me if I let Kivi provoke an erruption out of Zero who she had worked so long and hard with, I intervened and pulled Kivi away. Having said that, I really wonder about Kivi's desire to keep "pestering" Zero. Kivi is still only young and sometimes his enthusiasm gets the better of him, but last weekend he met his first assertive and somewhat unfriendly dog and there was no licking or nuzzling or any such thing. He stood stock still with everything down and his eyes away until this dog was pulled away from him by its owner (at which point the dog decided it had better make a token display of aggression and tried to have a go at Kivi).

So, I wonder. I wonder if this dog Kivi met last week would have shown no aggression if her owner hadn't lunged at her collar and dragged her away. After all, she was fine until that happened and it wasn't until she was safely held for a few moments that she thought about it and decided to make a big song and dance. I also wonder whether Zero has been "fixed" by his prong collar correcting him when he lunges or if he's just learnt not to lunge. I wonder if the problem was ever that bad in the first place. I will never know the answer to any of these questions, but I do have Kivi's reactions to give me hints. Do I trust that Kivi knows a dog that wants to eat him and a dog that just needs a different approach? He seems too young to trust, but his approaches were still different for each dog and he so loves other dogs that he's spent most of his short life dedicating himself to finding ways to have fun with them. Penny thought Zero was great, but wanted no bar with the dog that approached Kivi last weekend. Curious. How far can we trust our dogs if they have been well socialised?

 

It could be that the husky was not a very confident dog (and therefore used displays of aggression to try to mask his lack of confidence), and the other dog was a confident, possibly dominant dog.

My old landlord has a mixed breed that she brought home from the Dominican Republic.  This dog is great with people, not so much with dogs.  When she meets dogs she does this posturing thing.  Her hair stands on end, she gets stiff, she often growling and snarls, etc.  She just seems to pick fights.  She's been at it with a pair of corgis, a couple chows, harassed my friends boxers, and has gone at it with Sally.

My friend lives on the same property as this dog (Mouse is her name).  If my friend's female boxer steps into what Mouse has decided is her area, Mouse stands there and postures, hackles up, snarling, and will lounge at the boxer and chase after her snarling, and the boxer (who is a timid dog) always runs.  If Mouse runs into another dog who is threatened by her postering and responds in kind, there is usually a scrap, but in all her years of doing this there have not been injuries to any dog. 

I always thought she was just dog aggressive due to being very dominant until I started bringing Jack around there.  Jack is very confident in his interactions with other dogs and was well socialized as a pup.  When he was small Mouse would snarl at him and he would clearly defer, flipping over.  As he got bigger, they looked at each other differently.  

I had his there once when he was around a year old, and Mouse saw him from a little bit of a distance away, and tensed up.  If that had been Sally (who is also unconfident and tries to put on displays), I have no doubt Mouse would have approached unless I had gotten in between and forcefully told her to go away.  Instead, she just looked at Jack (who was not standing in a deferring posture, but was really excited to see a dog and was alertly looking at her while wagging) and when he barked at her (not even his deep bark, but his frustrated at not being able to get to the dog-bark) she turned tail and ran home.

Last month we were there and Jack was loose.  I didn't realize Mouse was out as well.  I was worried when they approach each other, but something made me just watch.  Mouse did her posturing, hackles up, snarling thing.  She even sort of moved like she was going to lounge but didn't.  Jack didn't move.  He didn't run away, he didn't posture back, but he also didn't take a submissive posture either.  Even though I was at a distance, I do believe he flashed a calming signal or two, but did not do any hardcore deferring body language.  It was as if he was just trying to confidently neutralize the situation while at the same time not going away, which was what she really wanted.  After a little while, I called him away, and he obeyed.  Mouse did not follow him and try to chase him when he turned away from her, she just watched him go then went back to her yard.

On the other hand, I have seen Jack react to dogs he believed meant business.  He will generally defer to that dog in a much more obvious manner, and we even met a Cane Corso that Jack went so far as to flip over to defer to--and this was not a dog that was doing obvious postering like snarling, etc.  There have been cases where a dog has gone at him and he immediately tried to get away from that dog.

Honesly, I feel that he has a pretty good social thermometer and can sense when a dog is unconfident and not to be taken seriously and when a dog is confident in who he is and means business....    

ron2

And I think, left to their own devices, dogs that don't like each other would find a way to stay away from each other. But, of course, you would label my idea a false assumption because it is your practice to put dogs that don't know each other together, in the interest of rescuing and fostering them. Nor am I  denying that they might find some way to co-exist. But it doesn't mean they like each other. Just because they aren't at each others' throats doesn't mean they are lovey-dovey. You provided us with an example of a dog that couldn't work it out with others, at the time. What was the solution? Sent to a behaviorist. But certainly not left in the situation of just working it out.

Once again it is a false to say that dogs don't like each other from just the human observation or even maybe from one situation.  From that point of view, any dog may be just co-existing with the human, not like the human, and has learned all the right moves just get some of the basic needs satisfied.  As I said in my previous post, it takes a dog awhile to join in pack activities and get "lovey-dovey".  Thats just the natural course of things, the rebuilding of the belongingness need with a new set of pack members.  The acceptance within the pack is all on the new dog and that belongingness need wil come to the surface once the lower level needs are satisfied. 

I was very surprised by your Shadow and the Chi story.  After all these years, I would expect you would know exactly how Shadow would act in any situation and if Shadow acted inappropiately like "snap Oz in two pieces" that would have been addressed and fixed long ago.  If it was me in that situation, I would be certain of my dog's behavior and reaction and would focus on the Chi in changing its behavior.  Of course, just like the hound did, Shadow could have diffused the situation all by himself, maybe if you knew him and you let him.

I'll bet the 5 pictures I showed and Spiritdog assessment was a first for you.  I'll also bet you would never put any dog you don't fully know in that situation.  I believe you do not understand the power of the dog pack, the belongingness need, and your only reference is reading about wolf family behavior.

Now a subseqent event happened with the Bullmastiff.  The Bullmastiff attempted to mount a Great Dane.  The Great Dane proceeded to give the Bullmastiff a correction by a loud bark, head turn, and an air snap.  The Bullmastiff attacked the Great Dane and the Great Dane just wanted to get away.  I was on the other side of the yard with the hound and when this happened I immediately went into reactive mode to stop this.  The hound beat me to the two dogs.  The hound pounced and body slammed the Bullmastiff and then the two started fighting.  I broke it up, sent everyone into neutral corners to calm down.  There were no bite marks just saliva on the dogs.  Half hour later, the hound and the Bullmastiff were interacting and playing.  Because of that incident, I am being very cautious with the Bullmastiff, he has controlled interaction with pack members.  I am able to observe his play behavior with his sidekick, the collie mix.  He is 115lbs of pure muscle and with his energy, strength, and momentum, he is a steam roller during play and can easily cause unintentional injury to the Danes and the one Hound.  The collie mix knows how to interact with the Bullmastiff and knows when to get out of the way.  I think my approach in rehabbing the Bullmastiff is controlling how he plays with the collie mix, formal obedience class, and be in contact with breed rescues.  From the pictures, you all have seen the muscles on this dog and they were probably built because of this intense play exercise.

DPU

The acceptance within the pack is all on the new dog and that belongingness need wil come to the surface once the lower level needs are satisfied. 

I agree with this.  And, I've observed that belongingness can happen quickly if the dogs are allowed to interact without too much human disruption.  That's not to say that we humans shouldn't place ourselves in the midst of the interaction...we can do that and still emit leadership...which although silent, can speak volumes.

DPU

The hound pounced and body slammed the Bull Mastiff and then the two started fighting.  I broke it up, sent everyone into neutral corners to calm down. 

Please explain the steps you took to send everyone into neutral corners.  Did you physically separate and place each dog in a sit or submissive posture?  Did you body block and use your energy to separate the dogs?  I'm curious because with my new addition, the play battling between the two young ones can be amped up so that sometimes I feel the need to step in.  I've learned that most of the time just the word "Enough" will work.  Bit, I'd like to know specifically what you do to break them up.

sillysally

To be honest, I don't know that what you did was a correction, but more of a distraction. 

I don't care what you call it. And honestly, Cherokee's always been that way..if she's aroused by another dog, and I try to distract her, she gets aggressive a lot quicker than she does if I don't interrupt.

But anyway, my point is I believe that by interrupting the very low-key "disputes" (for lack of a better word) with Jaz, I made her more uncomfortable. By not letting her immediately establish herself as "above" Jaz (and yeah, I know his name is spelled wrong..but that's how it's spelled..not a typo..1 z), I made her less confident, and more aggressive. To be alpha, above anyone, is not something Jaz has ever wanted. So I believe that if I'd just let Cherokee growl and posture, and let Jaz submit, they would've been fine. Instead I interrupted it, and she was never able to establish dominance over him *in her mind*..

Cherokee's aggression and inappropriate behavior is not something I'm denying here, I'm just saying I do believe there are times, when neither dog is in any actual danger, that I think they should be allowed to "work it out" themselves. I didn't, and ended up with two dogs who can't be in the same room.

DPU

The Bullmastiff attempted to mount a Great Dane.  The Great Dane proceeded to give the Bullmastiff a correction by a loud bark, head turn, and an air snap.  The Bullmastiff attacked the Great Dane and the Great Dane just wanted to get away.

I think you handle the situation right but the Mastiff showed that behavior since he was allowed to demonstrate it before; that does not mean you let him do it every time but its an example of what happens if its not corrected the first time

chelsea_b

When Jaz first moved in here, we introduced him and Cherokee the "right way" (what I believe to be the right way anyway...neutral territory, short non-stressful meetings, etc.), and they were okay. Cherokee did a little growling and posturing, I corrected her (as in "Hey, be nice!" not like a physical correction), and we moved on... But after a few of these meetings, her growling and posturing started to get worse...

Maybe you corrected her BUT didnt follow up on it at that same moment, you maybe stopped an escalation but Cherokee was still fixated on Jaz, Cheroke's body propaby was still showing the tension and thats something that you maybe looked over; you prevented an escalation but didnt correct the behavior

chelsea_b

By not letting her immediately establish herself as "above" Jaz (and yeah, I know his name is spelled wrong..but that's how it's spelled..not a typo..1 z), I made her less confident, and more aggressive. To be alpha, above anyone, is not something Jaz has ever wanted. So I believe that if I'd just let Cherokee growl and posture, and let Jaz submit, they would've been fine. Instead I interrupted it, and she was never able to establish dominance over him *in her mind*..

Thats why i always said that there shoul be a number 1 (you) and number 2s (everybody else), not number 3 or 4; if you show Cherokee that you are the only one avobe everybody else then: 1.- Cherokee does not feel she needs to be avobe someone else and 2.- You dont put Jaz on a stressful situation while he learns who is number 2. Maybe Jaz simply does not want to be submitted, delegating discipline is a risky idea, expecting that something you want really happens by expecting the dogs to make the right decision is not the best bet

corvus

I have a slight problem with this. Just a small one. It has been my experience that interruptions like that only work when the dog wasn't that dead keen on doing it in the first place. If the dog is dead keen on it, I can be as confident as I like - which is habitually pretty darned confident because I'm one of those people that don't think of the bad things that could happen until they happen - and the dog says "sure, but I want to" and bulls right through me or darts around me. I'm pretty quick on my feet for a large girl, but they can still get around me, especially Penny who is small enough that I never commit with my physical blocking unless I'm 100% sure I'll make it in time because if I'm not fast enough I could hurt her.

If the dog passes you by THEN you go again and start over, the first time maybe the dog didnt take you seriously, if it takes 3 times then you body block 3 times. When my dog wants to jump on the bed and he is dead keen about it, i body block, he of course turns around and tries to go up in the opposite side BUT i follow him and AGAIN i body block until he gets the idea "ok this dude for sure does not want me up there" and thats when he turns around and leaves

DPU

Dogs are social animals, they live in a pack structure, and the belongingness need is strong.

Agree, if you show a dog that he is not allowed to dominate another then he will forget about that and move on; if one dog its too hyper for him then he wont interact when the other dog is in that state but that does not mean he wont either when the other dog is calm, thats why for exaple, you show one dog to ignore the "hyperness" BUT you also show the hyper dog not to get closer to the first one at that moment = both dogas are happy.

The idea of not all the dogs like other dogs falls to much into human psychology

espencer

corvus

I have a slight problem with this. Just a small one. It has been my experience that interruptions like that only work when the dog wasn't that dead keen on doing it in the first place. If the dog is dead keen on it, I can be as confident as I like - which is habitually pretty darned confident because I'm one of those people that don't think of the bad things that could happen until they happen - and the dog says "sure, but I want to" and bulls right through me or darts around me. I'm pretty quick on my feet for a large girl, but they can still get around me, especially Penny who is small enough that I never commit with my physical blocking unless I'm 100% sure I'll make it in time because if I'm not fast enough I could hurt her.

 

If the dog passes you by THEN you go again and start over, the first time maybe the dog didnt take you seriously, if it takes 3 times then you body block 3 times. When my dog wants to jump on the bed and he is dead keen about it, i body block, he of course turns around and tries to go up in the opposite side BUT i follow him and AGAIN i body block until he gets the idea "ok this dude for sure does not want me up there" and thats when he turns around and leaves

Okay, that's fair. But not so much for the animal the dog is trying to go for in the first place. As an example, I might block Penny from going for Kivi, which I did plenty of times when they were settling in together. Maybe I could divert her, but if she was really angry about something, she'd just wait until I thought I had her and then have a go at him. She has waited ten minutes or more before for me to let my guard down so she can have her say already. As soon as she does it she gets sent outside for a time out. She sulks about it, but she knew that was going to happen and she's already going when I point at the door and say "out". She doesn't care. If I thought she would actually do the pup some injury, then I wouldn't be relying on blocks, that's for sure. If the dog gets around, then what have you prevented? Nothing. One time when Penny was young I was frantically trying to block the crazy dog next door that seemed to want to tear her to pieces. I couldn't. He got around me and got my dog. She was okay that time as we had our other dog with us who came to her rescue and the owners weren't far away, but she still hates every dog that moves into that house. After that whoever was walking Penny past the house would pick her up. That didn't do much either, but bring the whole situation to a head when my mother got bitten on the arm and the people put up a fence.

So I have found that blocking just delays in most cases and if you truly need it to work it's not dependable enough. However, it works great for teaching a dog that you don't want them to go somewhere. I can convince them to leave each other's bowls alone with blocking, but only because their wariness of getting beaten up by the other dog slows them down for me and we're in a smaller area. Unfortunately, my clever lappie who worked out the new treat dispensers almost instantly this morning is still figuring out that the coffee table is out of bounds after a week of solid blocking. He's a determined lad sometimes. 

espencer

I think you handle the situation right but the Mastiff showed that behavior since he was allowed to demonstrate it before; that does not mean you let him do it every time but its an example of what happens if its not corrected the first time

In your previous post, you said you would have corrected the dog at the approach because the approach was rude.  In a previous previous post, you said changing the behavior would not happen overnight but would change provided there was consistency to the method.  In this post you imply the attacked would not have occurred if the dog was corrected in the previous situation at the approach.  My priority is not to have a fight and the consequences for fighting would be a dramatic correction.  Fighting is the behavior I don't want to happen.    In the previous situation, if they engaged in a fight, I would be correcting both of them for that behavior.   No fighting, no need for correction.  Dogs all have their own canine languages based on their experiences.  The hound must have been in a similar situation for that dog to successfully navigate out of it.  I do see from the Bullmastiff and the collie-mix play, that mounting each other is ok and part of the play, they each allow it.  Of course mounting is rude and has to be fixed but it shouldn't matter what the rude behavior is, the conseqences for fighting is going to be severe. 

ron2

How long does it take new dogs to get used to her style of play?

Of course it depends on the individual dog.  I was actually referring to my other two dogs.  My JRT, Twister, took quite some time to get used to her rough and dominant style of play.  He will tolerate her big paw on his back and her rolling him up to a point.  When I see that HE is getting mad then I tend to interrupt the play with a loud "enough".  That seems to start the record over from the beginning.  I do not let these two stay together unattended for any length of time.  I let Belle (the rough playing dog) meet new dogs all the time but not dogs I don't know.  She doesn't seem to have good dog social skills and I don't want to take a chance that she will provoke a fight.  I adopted her from a shelter in May.  I can see that she will persist with rough play even when other dogs give her polite messages to quit. This is where I stop her by physically removing her from the other dog. 

My shephard mix Rex is completely tolerant of Belle and her rough, pushy play.  He has learned that the only way to stop her is to cry out and that will get her to PAUSE not stop. They are the same physical size and approximately the same age.  I don't interrupt their play because Rex has to learn how to take care of himself with Belle.  Neither has shown any aggression toward the other.

Should be interesting next week when I have another JRT for a week!  She is completely intolerant of rude dog behaviour but because of her small size I will have to make certain that she doesn't get hurt if she corrects Belle.  Corvus I need to borrow Penny! LOL

DPU

Once again it is a false to say that dogs don't like each other from just the human observation

You are misparaphrasing. What I said was not all dogs will like all other dogs, at least all the time.

DPU

After all these years, I would expect you would know exactly how Shadow would act in any situation and if Shadow acted inappropiately like "snap Oz in two pieces" that would have been addressed and fixed long ago.

Again, you are misquoting me. The actual phrase was "accidently snap him in two pieces," primarily because a Chi is so small. Not out of maliciousness but out of whatever "working it out" might have occured. No injury might have occured. On a walk in our town, we were circled by two loose Maltese that own about an acre of town and one street intersection. The braver one charged Shadow. Shadow got him by the neck and shook him silly. And let go, possibly to get a better grip, IDK. But the other dog took off lickity split (a wise decision) and seemed no worse for the wear. No, you had to say that just so that you could belittle my position, training method, or results with the "After all these years" bit.

DPU

I think my approach in rehabbing the Bullmastiff is controlling how he plays with the collie mix, formal obedience class, and be in contact with breed rescues. 

Sounds like what I would do, increasing the management and not allowing them to "just work it out." Not that they might never work it out but damage could happen in the process, if they ever did come to a settlement. And, of course, whatever psychological damage happens to the other dogs for always having to walk on eggshells or expect a sudden attack.

And yet I'm wrong for saying that not all dogs will always get along? Whatever.