Letting dogs *work it out*

This is I guess a Brief response but I can not let them work it out... never could.  They live by my desire and whim and they behave this way. There is NO way I would turn a couple of RRS out and let them work it out I have seen the damage after a dog fight I am not willing to clean up that mess ever.

I intervene to begin with vocally , a guteral UH UH !! then a LEAVE IT, follwed BY a DOWN or KNOCK IT OFF...... If these do not work and that is rare, I go for wading in and breaking up the discordanent action and attitudes.  I rarely have water at hand and have broken up only a few fights in almost 30 years.  For the most part I simply wade in , seperating by body "bulk" using the bigger pieces of my body to get inbetween the dogs, If need be I grab the more aggressive and pull away while another person pulls the less aggressive. There is a LOT of yelling and verbal correction going on.

I have been bitten once doing this by my own boy as he lashed out at his son, yes it was MY fault I put my arm in the way and as soon as he realized he was biting me the look on his face , oh my !! He was devastated.  I took a good size tear but it was just before a hurricane and all of the dogs in the neighborhood were "off"  ( We had over 80 grand in damages that hurricane!)  I have broken up one really bad fight and lucky for me my dogs got out of it with damages that healed the offending dog that came into my yard died from his injuries.

Bonita of Bwana

espencer

I dont let them "work it out" whatsoever, i take care of the whole situation myself, the time bewteen letting them "work it out" and a really bad fight can be less than a second, if one dog is violating another's personal space and that other dog growls then i redirect the growl AND remove the other dog away, that way i'm showing the growling dog that i'm there to take care of it (in case the growling dog is having a bad day already) and i teach boundries to the other dog

Ok, here is 5 pictures taken consecutively.  The bull mastiff is a foster and brand new to the pack.  The hound is a foster and has been with me about 4 weeks.  I am unsure of both of their behaviors but I do know that both will respond to me. The new dogs has to live peaceable with the pack.   At what point would you interfer to not allow them to *work it out*, picture 1 through 5. 

I would've been on guard starting with picture 2. By picture 5, I would've said enough and distracted them from each other.

Care to share with us what the outcome of this encounter was like?  Was there a lot of growling going on and if so, could you tell who?  Did the Dane calm things down?

I would have stepped in also, based on these photos and since these are both dogs not well situated in the pack as yet.  I would rather prevent that possible fight than deal with the aftermath.

By picture 5 (without being there) we already know what his intentions are, we are missing the "approach" between picture 1 and 2, did he come quickly with the head up? did he come slow with the head down?

That is the key that we need to look at if it happens again and we dont have a "picture 5" to know how it will end

The boxer needs to learn that approach is "rude", even when nothing happened here the boxer cant act like this again, not all the other dogs will do a negotiation signal like the "look away" in  picture 3. The boxer even ignored the "negotiation", in my opinion the boxer was asking for trouble 3 times in a row: rude approach, head on shoulder and ignoring the other dog's "calming signal"

I would say that there are pretty good chances that in at least 50% of the times this would end in a fight with other dogs

espencer

The boxer

Bob is not a boxer, he is a 115lbs Bull Mastiff soon to be about 125lbs.

Below are four pictures prior and one picture after.  Bob approach was head up, fast, and alert.  Petro the Great Dane distracted the Bull Mastiff and both then parted ways.  There was no growling.  The camera time stamped the pictures all within the same minute.

WOW that mastiff is in amazing condition!  What a dog!!

Anyway, based on the first set of pics....I think I would have been on guard, ready to step in.  Can't say that I would have.  My dogs have postured like that from day one and for them, it's how they initiate play with each other (they do bow, but typically to new dogs, not so much to each other).  So, I guess whether or not I think the mastiff had something to prove or was just trying to initiate play would depend on me being there and getting one vibe or the other.  My dogs have never been in a fight with each other or another dog (besides random unleash dogs escaping from their yard and charging and us quickly moving away) and my dogs have never humped each other.

  Normal 0 DPU, those are great photos, and he is in great shape.  Had that Mastiff approached some dogs like that, there would have been quite the mess.  Your hound has terrific canine language skills, and has effectively told the other dog that he does not wish to continue the initial interaction (head turn, body curved, turning his back to the other dog).  He is tense (his tail is up – tail down I would have interpreted as stress), but not signaling any aggression (commissure not very far forward, mouth wide open, ears back) toward the Mastiff.

The Mastiff is making pretty obvious threat behaviors (standing tall, body forward and stiff, ears up, mouth closed – but I see no "play face" or any signals that the intent is ritualistic, unless they were not captured in the still photos).  The Hound has nicely deflected the threat by not engaging with direct eye contact, and by using appropriate calming and distance increasing signals.  The tongue flick on the part of the Mastiff seems like a signal that he intends not to follow through on the threat since the Hound made all the right moves. Even though he's the loser in the interaction, he gets to avoid a fight with the canine equivalent of Rocky Balboa;-))

Note the other two dogs sniffing the ground in the photo where the Mastiff is interacting with the hound in the same manner.  The sniffing is out of normal context, so I interpret that as a displacement behavior signaling uncertainty about the situation unfolding on the other side of the yard.

This is not an interaction I would intervene in, unless I saw something from the hound that did not say "no thanks, not interested".  And, I would certainly intervene if the Mastiff did not observe the clear signal from the hound that he was giving in. 

I agree with SD's on this one.  If the hound did not turn away there would have been a problem.  In my house my Brooke is your bullmastif and River is your hound.  She is always posturing, straight and stern, using her head and butt to push him around.  He just ignores, turns and walks away.  But after months of observing it is clear that this is her way of initiating play.  IF River is not in the mood or has had enough he will give her a growl and snap and not to make contact but just to show her NOT NOW.  She does back off and ususally will reside to barking at him in stead.

I will take a vid and show you since it is an everyday occurance in my house.  Until the dogs are use to each other I would keep an eye on them, but I would not interfer unless necessary.  I kept an eye on my two for a long time until I was sure River wouldn't react negatively. 

And..  by the way what a beautiful dog he is.  Is the hound a male or female?

Interesting about the displaced behavior.  If the Bull Mastiff would have continued his aggression and a fight ensued would the other dogs come to the hound's rescue?  Has anyone ever seen this, two dogs fighting and then another dog joins in to attack the aggressor?  My observation has been the other dogs stand and watch while the two dogs *work it out*.

The hounds is a male named Pokey and his name fits him.

DPU

Has anyone ever seen this, two dogs fighting and then another dog joins in to attack the aggressor?  My observation has been the other dogs stand and watch while the two dogs *work it out*.

A most delicious point to make. Which makes me wonder why it is necessary to have dogs together where one has to push on another and the other has to give calming signals. Sure, they have company but it's like living with a bully. What is the quality of that life? Just a side thought.

I have seen both other dogs joining the fray and the other dogs standing aside to let it play out. I saw a fight erupt between our dog and the dog next door once. There were 3 strays and Penny nearby. Well, not strays, but out on their own with no restraints or owners. Two of the extras dived in and just went for whoever they could get to. The third was hard on their heels. Penny was barking almost hysterically, but not sure if she wanted to dive in as well or run away. That's how I interpreted it, but it was very fast and the situation had been a bit tense, I think, because the dog that started the fight was a loose cannon and our dog was known to be more than a match for any of them and she'd probably made that clear to all of them at one time or other. Anyway, I seem to remember the strays started out going for the dog that started it but ended up biting everyone including each other. They were out as quickly as they were in and by then our dog had once again proved her supremacy over the crazy unsocialised dog next door.

When Pyry picks a fight, the girls stay out of it. When one of the girls picks a fight, Pyry stays out of it.

I would not have intervened because, like SD said, the hound seemed to have things under control. I think 50% of these situations ending in a fight is an over-statement. I've seen it countless times and it almost never ends in a fight. Snapping, yes, growling, yes, fighting, no. Not often. Only if the dog coming on is a bit more aggressive than this mastiff. I've seen Penny refuse to stand for this kind of thing from much bigger dogs than her and got her way with a snap or two. I've also seen her cower because she knows not standing for it would bring her a world of trouble and she's worried she's going to be in a world of trouble anyway. Never seen that turn into a fight, but that's where I would intervene.

ron2

Which makes me wonder why it is necessary to have dogs together where one has to push on another and the other has to give calming signals. Sure, they have company but it's like living with a bully. What is the quality of that life? Just a side thought.

How do you know if you have a problem until the problem is first presented to you.  How can you deal with a dog issue without having a dog with the issue.  Necessity is the mothing of invention.  Dire situations inspire ingenious solutions. If worse comes to worst, people will apply all their imagination and skill to deal with the problem.  Once the problem is resolved, then countless others will benefit from the solution.

These pictures and the replies are a great example of why it is almost impossible IMO to give advice without witnessing the behaviour in person.  I responded that I would have broken things up but as it turns out there was no need and DPU could see that because he was there. 

I don't agree with the bully statement by ron2 per se because my female is quite the bully in her play with other dogs but she never crosses the line to aggression and the other dogs never refuse to play with her even though she is quite the pushy, bully type dog.