Letting dogs *work it out*

For me, whether to interfer or not is probably more of an involuntary reaction than a conscious thought out decision.  Tiffs happen all the time here and I am alerted to it by the vocalization of the dog.  Most of the time, the tiffs are over before I can react so I usually tells the dogs to "you guys,settle down".  If the tiffs are extended beyond the alert time, I interfer.....you have to, its a normal reaction and because safety is paramount, it is my responsibility to restore order.  So don't be lulled into a false security of thinking you will know how you react if the tiff gets extended and become more serious.

willowchow

I'd like to see more pictures of Chuck for sure!!

DPU

For me, whether to interfer or not is probably more of an involuntary reaction than a conscious thought out decision.  Tiffs happen all the time here and I am alerted to it by the vocalization of the dog.  Most of the time, the tiffs are over before I can react so I usually tells the dogs to "you guys,settle down".  If the tiffs are extended beyond the alert time, I interfer.....you have to, its a normal reaction and because safety is paramount, it is my responsibility to restore order.  So don't be lulled into a false security of thinking you will know how you react if the tiff gets extended and become more serious.

I just found this topic and agree 100%. I feel that if you dont give a small opportunity to work it out amongst themselves you are almost setting them up for failure.  For example if we were to visit another dogs home and a toy or food bowl was left out I'd hope Rory would have respect. I was able to practice this with Rory and Primo I found that I needed to keep a watchful eye but hoped that they had enough social experience that they could respect eachother's boundaries.

But as DPU said its our job to intervene if it gets out of hand.

Its a fine line and it requires us to know our dogs. When Rory was younger she got a bite on her nose for trying to steal another's dogs bone. Was it my fault for allowing to get that far? Maybe. However she was a pup, the offender was a 5 year old altered male and I didnt get upset with him. If he wanted to do damage to her he easily could have so maybe she got lucky with just a warning but I think it taught her a lot. The key point is that she was a pup, had she been a full gorwn adult and never been in that situation I probably would have never let her get so close to him for fear she might not have recoiled as easily. He may have also reaccted differently.

Goes to show early socialization with all typies, sizes, and ages of dog is very important. Had he been another pppy she might have missed that lesson. They played well for the rest of the day and he taught her to ride in the back of a truck!

spiritdogs

 Liesje has it right.  No one is suggesting that anyone would let vicious dog fights go on.  But, a tiff, as with an adult to pup correction, or the squabbling that occurs as dogs approach social maturity, is normal behavior, the unnecessary interruption of which can be detrimental, because if that tiff isn't settled, some dogs feel compelled to keep at it until it is settled.  They need to know where they fit in the social group.  But, certainly, those are ritualistic fights designed to avoid a real bloodbath. Letting dogs "work it out" applies to that normal continuum of behavior, but not to the situations where there is blood drawn, or the dogs are escalating out of control, or one dog is obsessively bullying another.  Apples and oranges.

I don't think it is apple and oranges.  Ritualistic fights can and do go over the line and lead to blood.  About 6 weeks ago a Brittany member of our park, who I know very well and is a well socialized dog, caught a rabbit.  Another member dog, a greyhound, who is also well socialized tried to take it away from the Brittany.  The greyhound ended up at the vet with a gash on his cheek.  This was not an accident, but a situation that was unavoidable.  The Brittany, having control of the rabbit growled to warn the greyhound, who did not respect the growl because he was so intent on the rabbit and a fight broke out.

We have had other situations where two males, who were both full of themselves, decide not to like each other.  They have fights, but that does not resolve the tension between them.  The fights only increase the tension between them.  I believe if that when the tension first started, before it ramped up, the dogs were separated, they would not get to practice the ramping up and the have the adrenaline rush that goes along with it.

I am not saying that dogs should not be allowed to greet and interact with other dogs, but unless you know all the dogs involved VERY well, the human needs to keep a very close watch on the situation and if things start going south, the human needs to interceede, preferably by taking their dog away from the situation.

Selli and Duff were both corrected by adult dogs when they were puppies and have corrected puppies when they are obnoxious.  They will both tell dogs off when they are mounted.  I prevent Duffy from being a jerk with other dogs.  Nine out of every ten dogs we meet I can relax and let the dogs do what they do, but I will interrupt any interaction that I think is escalating. 

We need to be our dogs best advocate, both with humans and with other dogs.  As a parent, I would not let my children interact with another child who was being obnoxious for any length of time.  I would intervene if the kid started pushing my child around or started insulting them before my dog felt the need to fight back or submit in some way.  I will do no less for my dogs. 

So much good reading to be had!

 I didn't forget about you guys...lol..just got busy. I've only gotten to read a few posts and want to reply to all pertinent stuff in one message so it'll have to wait until the morning as I don't work till noon tomorrow and I have a birthday to celebrate this evening!

Angelique

How old is Gaci?

Gaci is 4.5 years old. It does need to be known that Gaci has always had issues with communication with other dogs. Part of it is due to the fact that her dam died when the litter was born I think, part of it is her independent (what some would call willful?) personality, and part of it is actually an insecurity and lack of confidence. She comes across as quite bold, but you can easily see the tension and insecurity in her actions. And of course part of it is learned!

Shimmer on the other hand has always been a pushover. She's very sensitive, overly so (one huge reason she was removed from a breeding programme), and doesn't tend to stick up for herself at all. For a long time when she was young I did intervene but it wasn't teaching her how to actually communicate her intent very well and I felt that I as human was interfering with her abilities to learn to communicate as she needed to do.

There was a time when I did not allow Gaci to bother others at all, sort of like espencer's way. But it wasn't anything to do with me wanting to b ein control, Gaci had no communication abilities without actually aggressing. She has torn many ears in scuffles when she was young. So there was a long time I did not allow any discussion with her. But once I realized that it wasn't really changing her behaviour any, I changed tactics and actually let her begin to slowly learn appropriate ways to "speak" with other dogs. It took a long time, and it's still ongoing, but she no longer goes right from still to biting, she has a lot more communicative gestures she can use to express herself, and the amount I have to intervene is very small, and only if I realize that she's her communication efforts are breaking down. It's my way of guiding her continually as to what is appropriate behaviour and what is not, and my way of protecting the other dog and letting them know that in the end I will keep all safe. Gaci is a really funny girl that way, but she's really come a long, long way.

When she was a resource guarder though, there was no decision making on her part. Because for that issue it was not communication but Gaci trying to control a resource from other dogs and she needed to learn from me that she has no need, and no rights, to guard the things that she guarded. I say need because it stemmed from insecurity and it was actually stressing her out to "defend" these resources, I say right because they were things that in my house are shared objects, not personally owned objects.

For example Gaci took a period of days where she did not, under any circumstances, want Shimmer to sleep on the bed. If Shimmer jumped up, Gaci would tense up, pace, whine, stand over Shimmer, and shake. Shimmer was being picked on, and was making it worse by submitting with no release from Gaci. I ended up instructing Shimmer to sleep on the bed and Gaci to sleep on the floor on a pillow for two nights to let her realize that she does not own the bed nor make decisions to sleep on the bed. All it took was two nights and there have been no issues since at all, because sleeping on the bed was very important to her so it took precedence over controlling the bed. She would rather share it, it seems, than not have it at all. ;-)

It's been an interesting path because at one time there was no decision-making allowed on Gaci's part, but I have seen her grow and actually learn how to communicate with the dog(s) that she lives with and it has made her life more stressful. I'm working on uploading a video at this moment to show you exactly what I mean, but my internet takes a while to upload things *G*.

Kim_MacMillan

There was a time when I did not allow Gaci to bother others at all, sort of like espencer's way. But it wasn't anything to do with me wanting to b ein control, Gaci had no communication abilities without actually aggressing. She has torn many ears in scuffles when she was young. So there was a long time I did not allow any discussion with her. But once I realized that it wasn't really changing her behaviour any, I changed tactics and actually let her begin to slowly learn appropriate ways to "speak" with other dogs. It took a long time, and it's still ongoing, but she no longer goes right from still to biting, she has a lot more communicative gestures she can use to express herself, and the amount I have to intervene is very small, and only if I realize that she's her communication efforts are breaking down. It's my way of guiding her continually as to what is appropriate behaviour and what is not, and my way of protecting the other dog and letting them know that in the end I will keep all safe. Gaci is a really funny girl that way, but she's really come a long, long way.

Kim,

I think it is great that you were able to do this with Gaci.  You must have been able to find some bombproof dogs to work with.  In order to do that kind of work, you have to be sure of the stable temperament of one of the dogs, know the temperament of the other dog, and extremely good at reading the body language of both dogs.  

Well, I don't know, Golden. After Penny had a few scary run-ins with strange dogs including the one living next door that would fly at her whenever he got the chance and put holes in my mother's arm one day trying to get to her... for a long time she was overly tense around strange dogs. Often she would snap when they came to say hello and she took to biting noses. I don't think she ever drew blood, but she learnt that if a big dog was making her uncomfortable, a flying snap at the nose invariably bought her some space and respect. It NEVER started a fight, and I can't say how many dogs she's done this to over the years. As she came to trust this signal, she did it less and less. She spent more time with large dogs and gradually relaxed and allowed them to get near her. She now reserves the nose bite for moments when a large dog is really getting up her left nostril. I think it was really important for her to find for herself a way to tell dogs forcefully to back off. I often wonder if she ever would have got better if she hadn't been allowed to find that signal and use it. It took a long time for her to regain her confidence.

Anyway, I wouldn't have called many of the dogs she has bitten particularly bombproof. One was a female GSD that lived across the road from us and would bark furiously through the gate at her. One day she was off lead and ran right up to her, smartly bit her on the nose through the gate and we never saw her face again. I felt sure that GSD would not stand by and allow my dog to attack her when she was on her own turf, but there you go. Penny apparently knows what she's doing. To use another example, Penny recently met a poorly socialised dog at the park who wanted very much to make friends, but whenever Penny got close she would change her mind and lunge at her instead. I wouldn't call Penny bombproof either, but she seemed to understand that the dog ultimately wanted to interact and she kept going back and going back, even though this dog was much bigger and was rushing her quite aggressively at times. Penny quickly figured out the dog's comfort zone and would stop just outside it and allow the dog to approach her from there. I honestly thought Penny wouldn't want anything to do with this dog, but even after being with her for nearly 13 years now, and after plenty of dog experience and learning about body language, I still wasn't able to read the situation as well as Penny was and Penny surprised me. And this is why I am reluctant to intervene. Because I know I'm good at dog language for a person, but I still suck royally compared to a well socialised dog, which is the only kind of dog I own.

GoldenAC

I don't think it is apple and oranges.  Ritualistic fights can and do go over the line and lead to blood.  About 6 weeks ago a Brittany member of our park, who I know very well and is a well socialized dog, caught a rabbit.  Another member dog, a greyhound, who is also well socialized tried to take it away from the Brittany.  The greyhound ended up at the vet with a gash on his cheek.  This was not an accident, but a situation that was unavoidable.  The Brittany, having control of the rabbit growled to warn the greyhound, who did not respect the growl because he was so intent on the rabbit and a fight broke out.

But how is the above a ritualistic fight? Taking something from another dog is a serious offense. And was the injury a quick slash or were the dogs truly fighting?

I've had to break up a dog fight that could have ended in the death of one of the dogs, and I've also seen injuries inflicted as a very strong warning.  I've seen plenty of ritualistic yelling matches, that are scary at the time but turn out to be nothing but a case of young male dogs shouting "your mama" insults.

 It just seems to me that there is are differences between a quick tiff, a ritualistic yelling match, and a real fight.

I think I do take a similar approach with my child and my dogs. I don't intervene much when she and a friend are having little dramas - and trust me, often these dramas are little kids sorting out power issues. If things get heated to a certain point, I step in to guide but don't shut it all down. If one dog or kid seems truly out of hand, I put an end to it. It so hard to quantify when things go from mild to heated to trouble - it is subjective.

In general, I allow more back and forth between dogs that know each other well and have frequent contact. Usually there is a level of trust between the dogs that gives them room to bicker a little. I am more cautious with dogs I don't know well, or dogs who I know have weak social skills. Sasha is given a lot of leeway in her relationship with Eko, because they live together and she trusts him. With outside dogs, I am on her because she has anxiety and can get overly snippy. Once she trusts a dog, I know that she'll behave in more appropriate ways. I also know that she's fine with bombproof dogs, because they put her at ease.
 

GoldenAC

You must have been able to find some bombproof dogs to work with

I need to clarify that she's not a totally healed dog that works with all other dogs..lol. She still has a lot of trouble dealing with strange dogs, especially because her first reaction is to, well, react, which causes her to stop thinking and actually observe other dogs. Most of the work we've done involved living in a group of dogs in a household and coexisting with them by learning to communicate effectively. I can't say for sure that they were all bomb proof - dogs came and dogs went, there were older dogs, same age dogs, younger dogs, I would wager that there were more non-bombproof dogs than bombproof dogs. A true bombproof dog is a rarity. But then again realistically Gaci needed to learn how to live with all types of dogs, not just bombproof ones, so it was better that there was a diverse group of dogs and different things she needed to learn. Being in a large group of canids helped her learn those skills faster.

But yes, I agree that in order to do that type of work, you have to be patient, you have to be observant, and you have to know how to read the body language of dogs - in my case it wasn't always just two dogs to watch, but sometimes many if another dog was thinking of getting involved in a situation. I did have the benefit of having one matriarch dog (what we called the oldest gal) that would intervene and tell off either offender, and then perform perfect splitting of them, who helped Gaci learn outside of myself. She was, in that household, what I'd call THE bombproof dog of the house, and also the dog that would punish the appropriate offender kindly (splitting, then eye, then low grumble, never needing to escalate before solving the issue).

I wouldn't of course recommend any person with limited dog skills to attempt to teach a dog communication skills. I think it's something that needs to be done under the skilled eyes and work of a trainer, who can help you learn to read your dogs and intervene at just the right moment. But I had the advantage of having a lot of those skills (and the advantage of learning through the experience) so I was able to do that sort of work myself. And to this day I can still take the girls out to mom's house, chuck them in the back yard and know all will be well with Gaci, no matter if she hasn't seen them in a week or three months.

The video didn't upload right the other day, so I'm attempting it again. Hopefully I can get it to work!

One really good experience we did have, however, was the first time that Gaci and Shimmer were boarding. The place they board is a dear friend of mine who has a relatively new boarding facility. She also does flyball, a lot of rescue, and training, and I trust her utmost with my dogs. She introduced them both to two of her dogs, a Chihuahua mix and a Border Collie mix, in her fenced backyard. They did not play with each other by any means, but there were no problems either, and the Chi mix is actually what I would call another bombproof dog and my friend told me that the Chi mix actually helped calm Shimmer down the first time she boarded as she was quite stressed out.

espencer

I dont let them "work it out" whatsoever, i take care of the whole situation myself, the time bewteen letting them "work it out" and a really bad fight can be less than a second, if one dog is violating another's personal space and that other dog growls then i redirect the growl AND remove the other dog away, that way i'm showing the growling dog that i'm there to take care of it (in case the growling dog is having a bad day already) and i teach boundries to the other dog

You can have 2 stubborn dogs and if you let them "work it out" you will have bad fights all the time because niether will back away, you might have one trying to step up a hierarchy level becuase the other dog is getting old, then you will start having problems

For safety reasons too, you dont know if the dogs decide to "work it out" while there is a kid around, they didnt come into an agreement and then the kid is between 2 dogs fighting, not to even mentioning that one dog one day might decide to "work out" something with a kid

I dont "delegate" discipline to avoid mistakes and vet bills, not to mention liability; my dog is not aggressive but he might have bad days too and there is a lot of ignorant people out there as well as rude dogs that are not well socialized, my dog knows that i'm there to take the best decision  helping him with what is bothering him so he does not have to use his own methods if that dog/kid/thing/person is not getting the message

Ok, I just witness a good example of this yesterday at the foster dog showing at Petsmart.  A pittie name Jerico was there and he is super friendly with people and most dogs.  He is the type of the dog where if he likes the other dog, he runs up fast and is in the dog's face doing all the greeting ritual behaviors.  If he does not like the dog, he barks and growls before trying to run up to the dog.  The foster mom does the "pssst", taps the dog on the shoulder, and then directs the dog to lay down.  The dog obeys.  The foster mom takes care of the situation but what happens is time after time the dog does the same thing and the mom has to continually take care of the situation.  The dog's behavior does not change but if this was a one time situation then I suppose the approach would be ok.....but as everyone knows, the behavior will continue.

DPU

The foster mom takes care of the situation but what happens is time after time the dog does the same thing and the mom has to continually take care of the situation.  The dog's behavior does not change but if this was a one time situation then I suppose the approach would be ok.....but as everyone knows, the behavior will continue.

There are no "quick fixes", this time the dog obeys to lay down, how was before the owner started doing this? probably worse, with time and repetition the dog will learn not to do it whatsoever, also we dont know if the owner is consistent, sometimes doing it and sometimes not, with the same approach is how i taught my dog not to chase bunnies, at the beggining he was going after everything that was moving, today, a bunny can jump up from the bushes we are walking next to and my dog does not even bother to look, he knows now, he is not allowed to chase them

espencer

There are no "quick fixes", this time the dog obeys to lay down, how was before the owner started doing this? probably worse, with time and repetition the dog will learn not to do it whatsoever, also we dont know if the owner is consistent, sometimes doing it and sometimes not,

I can only tell you that she was consistent in her approach for the 3 hours of the dog showing.  There was no behavior change in the dog.  Since this setting (foster dog showing with many dogs and people coming by) occurs only 2 Saturdays a month, would that time gap work against the training?

Sometimes, there does seem to be a bit of a ritual to the interaction. This could indicate more of a communication, rather than a strictly conditioning moment.

Each new person (or dog) approaching a given dog and handler can present a different situation.

I don't know if that made any sense.