I don't understand why...

    • Gold Top Dog

    snownose

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    • Gold Top Dog

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    glenmar

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    • Gold Top Dog

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    Good heavens, I've disagreed with Anne on many occasions and she hasn't tried to force a dang thing on me.  And I turned to Anne for help and suggestions with Thor and I WAS one of those with the buts......not being a stupid person I had tried all the things she had suggested, and she was right, I taught Thor that if he pulled he got what he wanted, and that if he was patient enough eventually I'd stop playing tree and move, even if it was because he'd managed to pull me right off my feet.  Anne never degraded me, never tried to make me feel like a failure, she simply continued to offer me suggestions and help.  There were others on the forum who were not so kind when it came to the saga of Thor and loose leash walking.

    What I did, resorting to the prong, is certainly NOT something she recommends but she never once condemned me for using it, instead she offered guidance in how to use it PROPERLY as a training tool to achieve the ultimate goal of getting rid of the darned thing.

    I think sometimes folks on this forum take things that are said as a personal attack when none was intended and I think there are some that look for reasons to launch said personal attacks.  And, I think that's pretty darned sad.

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    glenmar

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    Yes, there's some pointless ping pong going on, but Chuffy and I were pretty clear in our message, which is perhaps not dramatic enough to get much attention. Anne is very talented. She knows more about dog training than I do, for sure. She has obviously been a great help to people on this forum. So I do hold her to certain standards, because I think she is capable of meeting them and because I think if you present yourself as an authority you have a responsibility to meet certain standards. Calling people lazy and saying things like "slap on a prong" - ???  Seriously.

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    • Gold Top Dog

    Moderator speaking...

    If folks cannot keep this thread productive and full of content appropriate to the placement it has here in dog behavior...and NOT indulge in either "woe is me" or "get over yourself" type posts...they should simply NOT post to this thread.

    The above goes for every single person who has posted or is considering posting...to this thread.

    Self moderate, if you have something personal to say to ONE person...that is what PM's are for. Packing up is not an appropriate means to solve problems here, USE THE REPORT FEATURE if you think something is personal or over the line...choosing to deal with it yourself opens you to editing...same as the original problem you are addressing.

    Thank you.

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    • Gold Top Dog

    glenmar
    This is the same group that seems to look for ANY reason to discredit Anne.

     I don't think that is the case, nor do I think that it is OK for everyone but Anne to vent - I can be naive at times -  but not this time.   Unfortunately I see that Anne did not get the comforting empathy she had hoped for, and yea that stinks.  I can recall getting my butt kicked on another forum - unfairly- when i wanted to sympathy.  Sometimes cyber-communication isn't so good

    I am sure it is frustrating to have people bring adolescent dogs into training expecting a quick fix and then they don't follow the instructions anyway.  That happens everywhere you llok in life these days because everyone knows everything.  Have been a teacher for years and worked as a therapist for even longer - not professions for those who don't like banging their head into a wall.  What that means is I have to adapt my ways in order to communicate what it is I want to communicate.

    I've seen that said in this thread and that to me is someone wanting to help Ann not disparage her.  Training is a hot topic as there are many experienced and successful dog owners on this forum - we all start somewhere and often we don't start where we should start.  We have to learn.

    I have learned much from so many on here and from people on every side of every debate.

    Personally I think we can all be more open-minded, respectful and tolerant of each other and our individuality.  I really don't need to agree completely with anyone, but that doesn't mean that I need to tell them what an idiot they are or disparage their beliefs.  Relax everyone.

    Ann I am sorry you feel victimized - I don't think it looks that way to everyone though, certainly not me - I think you just didn't get the response you had wanted and needed. And that happens in life and more frequently on internet forums.  Non-verbal communication is an essential piece of the puzzle.

    Now everyone take a breath and stay on topic

    EDIT to say that I took so long to type that DogMa and RW posted in the meantime

    • Gold Top Dog

    Moderator reminder...

    We have an "Our Community" area where things such as member relations, posting tone, etc can be discussed in a general sense. As always public commentary on individual members posting styles, is always a risk to indulge in...but if people have problems they can post in the aforementioned section and try to have a RESPECTFUL...insult and snide commentary free tete a tete about it.

    Further discussion about the above in any form...will be considered OT on this thread.

    Thanks.

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    ron2

    Chuffy
    And what about my earlier point, which I don't think was addressed - why is it that if a dog doesn't get something right away even after you have gone to great pains to teach him, SD's first question is most probably: does he REALLY understand what I am asking?  Yet, humans don't learn right away and they are "lazy".  Do you see?

    I understand you, now. But what if the person still resists or has a list of "buts" after the third time you've explained it?

     

    I don't deny that must be enormously frustrating!  They do say a dog has more friends because he wags his tail instead of his tongue....

    If a dog COULD talk I'm sure he would give just as much back chat, lame excuses etc.  But it doesn't change the method of learning.  It just makes the teaching harder. 

    The person who won't do X or won't stop accidentally rewarding Y.... how would you (colloquial) respond if that were a dog who wouldn't down on cue? 


     

    • Gold Top Dog

    If a dog COULD talk I'm sure he would give just as much back chat, lame excuses etc.


    Actually (and this goes to my own view of training), I don't think dogs can or would think that way, and therefore we wouldn't hear that stuff from them.  Excuses require a strongly self-aware way of thinking, and thinking of anything but what's right at hand.  These are helpful tools for humans, and I don't say we shouldn't be that way - but this is neither a strength, nor a weakness of dogs.

    And so just as with the dog, my response to a person who just doesn't get it is to evaluate my own communication.  Also, is it possible that I'm the one who doesn't get it?  I think both of these thoughts are necessary for constructive communication, whether I'm working with an animal or a person.  

    With a dog, one must restrict one's approach to the in-the-moment, and largely nonverbal world that dogs live in.  With a person, one can appeal to logic, history, experience, authority, and emotion.  Otherwise there's little difference.

    The person who won't do X or won't stop accidentally rewarding Y.... how would you (colloquial) respond if that were a dog who wouldn't down on cue? 

    First, consider whether this is a hill you want to die on - is it worth the confrontation (even a gentle one)?  Is your way the only way?  Is there a common ground where you can find some parallel way of looking at the situation?  Do you agree there is a problem to be addressed?  Finally, does the person actually see where the problem is occurring?

    Sometimes we miss these necessary precedents to a discussion.

     

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    brookcove

    If a dog COULD talk I'm sure he would give just as much back chat, lame excuses etc.


    Actually (and this goes to my own view of training), I don't think dogs can or would think that way, and therefore we wouldn't hear that stuff from them.  Excuses require a strongly self-aware way of thinking, and thinking of anything but what's right at hand.  These are helpful tools for humans, and I don't say we shouldn't be that way - but this is neither a strength, nor a weakness of dogs.

     

    Simply talking (in the way we do, not just vocalising) does require self awareness I think.  But that's OT.

    What I meant was, if dogs COULD give us excuses etc. they would.  They are not better nor worse than humans.... they learn in much the same way.  The barest bones, the key principles.... I believe these remain the same.  

    brookcove
    And so just as with the dog, my response to a person who just doesn't get it is to evaluate my own communication. 

     

    *weeps with barely concealed joy*

    Someone it seems, is on the same page as me.  If I was wearing a hat I would throw it in the air.

    brookcove
    First, consider whether this is a hill you want to die on - is it worth the confrontation (even a gentle one)?  Is your way the only way?  Is there a common ground where you can find some parallel way of looking at the situation?  Do you agree there is a problem to be addressed?  Finally, does the person actually see where the problem is occurring?

     

    I think I see your point.  Thank you Smile 

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    mollymoo

    This may be off topic too but why can everyone else on the forum rant about their JOB, their neighbor, people at the dog park, I could go on for ever so etc. Oh ya right they aren`t dog trainers.  BUT just because she is a dog trainer and this is a dog forum all is let loose on her. She can`t rant about her job as everyone else here on the forum just because of what she does. How sad.

    spiritdogs -  I for one love to read your posts and your replies to help people and I have learned a lot from you. Thanks

     

     

    Thank you, mollymoo.  I think the response here is less because I'm a trainer, and more because the people who are dumping on me disagree with my training methods.   Just as with Republicans and Democrats,  you  can seldom get one camp to agree with the other, but it's when you deteriorate into making it personal that it becomes a witch hunt and not a debate.   People can  poop all over me, but I get red inked for suggesting a humorous spinoff - go figure. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I get red inked for suggesting a humorous spinoff - go figure. 

    I have to admit I was a little puzzled over that one two..... Confused

    • Gold Top Dog

    luvmyswissy

    I get red inked for suggesting a humorous spinoff - go figure. 

    I have to admit I was a little puzzled over that one two..... Confused

     

    Maybe we have a mod who is a Republican.  Maybe we have a mod who is a Democrat.  (*runs back to corner*)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Evidently, ot is ot or they just wanted to throw cold water on the bunch of us.

    Anyway, per original topic. Why do people behave the way that they do, especially in regards to training instruction.

    The short, insensitive answer: they think they know everything and resent it when somone shows them that they are wrong.

    A more complex answer (and hopefully more accurate): a combination of factors, some subtle, some not. My disclaimer, I am not educated in psychology. Just the same, some behavior patterns are so predictable that even I can see them. People absorb a fair amount of attitudes and filters by which they see things through upbringing, local culture, and, of course, ego. If one's family viewed dogs as a constant struggle (for example, the macabre saying "dog eat dog world";) then they are likely to ascribe to notions of social dominance. Humans tend to behave as if social dominance is the way, even though we also show social unity from the ground up. That is, a person is in leadership because we allow them to be there. If a person has a problem understanding that concept, I invite them to study revolutionary war, both american and french. No one likes a dictator and eventually, the "people" rise up and displace what they don't like. But that doesn't stop the attractiveness of the social dominance model. Plus, it may give some people a sense of power and mysticism that they can physically subdue another creature. An interesting dichotomy arises. Many wish to think of a dog as closely related to a wolf or as a domesticated wolf (that's an oxymoron) yet would assume to do to their dogs what no clear-headed, own-skin-loving person would do to a real wolf. That is, I haven't seen any person go out and try to collar-correct, or tsst, or scruff and pin a 120 lb gray wolf that can run upto 40 mph.

    Yet these beliefs persist and some owners may simply insist that the expert, (in this case you, SD), don't know what you are talking about because it doesn't fit with what they know, even if what they know lacks scientific data or proof. Which sounds more like a struggle of science versus faith, though that may be painting with a broad stroke on my part.

    I might describe it as a misunderstanding. For example, a misunderstanding of the actual interactions of dogs. What many people think of as momma dog scruffing a pup is not a social dominance move but a physical move for mechanical reasons. It is still the pup that learns to give calming signals. And most training doesn't happen until 4 months when mostly the male members revoke the puppy license and engage in psychological warfare that uses very little physical process but mostly growls, stares, and postures. A pup that cannot amend his own behavior will soon be cast out. No one likes a bully. But it can be easy to assume something different from watching such interactions. And the average owner might not have that sensitivity of observation. But, like many adults, once he has that attitude in mind, it becomes difficult to change it.

    Hence, it is more difficult to change a human than to train a dog. This is in spite of our supposed intellectual superiority, our so-called cognitive abilities. Shoot, it's easier to talk about dog training than human training, sometimes.