I don't understand why...

ron2

Hence, it is more difficult to change a human than to train a dog.

Ron, I think that is trick to being a successful dog trainer. I have never sought any professional training for my dog but I enjoy watching a variety of trainers on TV and it is always more about teaching the owner than the dog. If a trainer does not have the ability to connect and communicate well with people than all the knowledge and skill pertaining to dogs that trainer may have is of little or no value. This is true for any teaching profession IMO. 

ron2

Anyway, per original topic. Why do people behave the way that they do, especially in regards to training instruction.

The short, insensitive answer: they think they know everything and resent it when somone shows them that they are wrong.

I'm not going to necessarily agree with you here. I would imagine that if someone is seeking help, they probably already realize that what they have been doing is not correct. Still they may need to be convinced that the 'new' way will work. That is where the trainer's personality and communication skills kick in. I think that is why CM is so successful. He can show results relatively quickly, which encourages owners to continue with his recommendations. Positive training can take longer and therefore requires a bit more faith and trust in the trainer. JMHO

ron2

The short, insensitive answer: they think they know everything and resent it when somone shows them that they are wrong.

Bingo, my son

Just as with dogs, children and marriages, sometimes the least confrontational method is to make them think it was all their bally idea in the first place!

ron2

Hence, it is more difficult to change a human than to train a dog.

(hesitates!!!!!!)  This is where CM gains his popularity I think... he has a way with people, charisma.  Training the dogs is relatively easy, even if you do use more punitive (stop that) methods, rather than positive. 

Give the owner's dog to the trainer and they could "fix it" relatively easy.  But getting the human to replicate that magic?  Now THAT is where the real skill lies.... 

Yes, CM oozes charisma. I wouldn't let him touch my dogs, but he could take me out for a drink.  

Dog_ma

I wouldn't let him touch my dogs, but he could...

I sooo thought you were going to end that sentence differently...

Memo to self, "Mind out of the gutter, mind out of the gutter...!!! "

 I think that this thread has been about more than one momentary rant, and, quite frankly, I do not need or want anyone's sympathy.  I am no different than the mechanic who occasionally throws a wrench across the garage floor because a bolt won't move.  Doing that certainly doesn't mean that the person doesn't know how to fix cars, or doesn't wish that drivers or other mechanics wouldn't do certain things.  In fact, it could be that he fixes cars on the NASCAR circuit, and is perfectly nice to all the drivers and mechanics pretty much all the time.  However, I do believe that if you are one of the people Ron described, and the mechanic has told you a hundred times not to ride the clutch, you might not be so happy to read a thread about riding the clutch, and the mechanics who think you suck for doing it, on the car forum you belong to.  Granted, but at least I was speaking in generalities, and certainly not naming anyone, or referring to anyone on this forum.  When you train hundreds of dogs per year, and you continue to see the same mistakes made, it is disheartening.  No matter how nice you are, some people will not take your advice.  If their dogs don't suffer for it, great.  But, many of them do, and that's sad and worth a rant now and then.  Now, I guess you all can continue your little rant about me without me.

Hello everyone. Still here it appears.

To be honest, a lot of people just aren't motivated to train until something happens that they don't like. I'm one of them. My greatest joy in owning animals is the way they can surprise you, think up new things to do, discover something rewarding on their own, decide for themselves what they want to do with their time. I see no need to train my dogs to do a lot of things until a problem arises. Kivi Tarro has recently decided the couch is the best place in the house to be. My partner doesn't care if he leaps up and lies on us and chews us whenever he likes, but I do. So because I don't like surprise visits from puppies, and because sometimes I like my own space, we had a crash course in "up" and "off" that never would have occurred if it was just my partner. This was just last week, so we're still in "reminding" period and to be totally honest, sometimes when you have a cuddly lappie puppy come diving up for snuggles the rules just don't get kept. We're all weak sometimes. Anyway, long story short, KT got into the car on his own for the first time ever this morning with a little help from the recent "up" request. Brilliant considering last week he was sitting rooted to the spot ten metres from the car refusing to go anywhere but backwards. We had started working on getting him to get himself into the car anyway, but only because we realised he'd be too big to pick up pretty soon.

My rambling point is that often there needs to be motivation and often there isn't until you want something to stop. And then often things seem hard and you want shortcuts to a good dog. Who doesn't? Frankly, I just don't have the energy or motivation to train pre-emptively. And I rarely want to anyway. My focus is on sharing my life with my animals, and training only happens when some behaviour is getting in the way of that. I think most people are the same. They just want to spend time with their dogs and have fun together and they don't think of training as fun. It's not a matter of laziness, or obnoxiousness, really, just a matter of different values people have for different activities.

Incidentally, in my job I get paid to care about the native wildlife for people that don't care about native wildlife. When I happen to bump into the people I work for and tell them about some neat critter we've found, they're always interested, just never interested enough to want to go out of their way to find out anything about it. That's not their fault, just the way they are. I suspect many dog owners are the same. They have dogs because they like them and enjoy canine company, but they're not actually so into it all that they'd go out of their way for their dog. They're too focused on what they want, not what they have.

Corvus - Hi!

 Exactly, I think you hit the nail on the head! 

Actually, Corvus, I think your explanation is as good as mine and maybe, sometimes, there's a combo of all of it but I think your explanation covers it at least most of the time.

Here's the problem, a quixotic challenge Ian Dunbar has been pursuing for decades. To get people to pre-emptively train, starting in puppyhood, to avoid the problems that you speak of later on. So, that they don't wind up at SD's door with a problem. Then, when given the solution, don't want to follow through because it takes work and time. "I just don't have the patience", "I'm too busy", all the standard excuses.

I think we each have a different perspective. I was raised with "no excuses." The only easy day was yesterday. Accomplish the objective regardless of obstacles. Can't is not in the vocabulary. If I earned a C in a report card, I should have gotten an A. If I earned a B, I should have gotten an A. If I got an A-, I should bring that up to an A or A+. And somethings are a responsibility to not be taken lightly.

I also have the perspective of owning a large, fast dog. A large, lovable, fast dog that can tackle you just for fun. You could not withstand a 30 mph flying 65 lb tackle. Not training was not an option.

Your explanation of others' motivation is probably spot on but it does not absolve them of the responsibility of training or of heeding a trainer's advice. And it's got to be frustrating as a trainer to see this happen all the time.

I see no need to train my dogs to do a lot of things until a problem arises.

this attitude is the number one cause of dog deaths and dog-inflicted bites to people. And is the entire reason why Anne is ranting.

 Funny, she never rants about the dogs she works with.  Why is that, do you think?
 

corvus

My rambling point is that often there needs to be motivation and often there isn't until you want something to stop. And then often things seem hard and you want shortcuts to a good dog. Who doesn't? Frankly, I just don't have the energy or motivation to train pre-emptively. And I rarely want to anyway. My focus is on sharing my life with my animals, and training only happens when some behaviour is getting in the way of that. I think most people are the same. They just want to spend time with their dogs and have fun together and they don't think of training as fun. It's not a matter of laziness, or obnoxiousness, really, just a matter of different values people have for different activities.

I think I am the opposite of what you are what you are talking about.  I think I unconsciously do pre-emptively training by meticulously taking care of the dog's needs first and foremost and recognizing the heirarchy of those needs.  Once those needs are satisfied and provided in overabundance, I don't seem to require counsel from a professional trainer because I don't seem to encounter the typical behavior problems that JQP dog owner would seek help for.  When I do seek out advise from a dog professional for unique issues that come with the fosters, I find a serious lack of like experience in Trainers.  Its seems in the dog professional training that the training method is the ware where the average JQP should be seeking dog professionals that have experience with their specific problem....and that includes experience with the dog''s environment, its human family, and its fellow dog and other pets family.  All the variables surrounding the dog's environment should be taken into consideration before any advise can be given.  Unfortunely, even if the variable are disclosed, the trainer always seems to rely on safe cookie cutter methods.  And when the variables and cookie cutter advise meet, the advise is worthless.  So I can see how a trainer can get frustrated.   So maybe to avoid frustration and the need to rant on a dog forum, the trainer should take an inventory of their quality experience. 

This weekend I picked up another foster who was being fostered by another family and claimed they are overwhelmed with this dog's behavior problem.  They said they could not cope with energy and antics of a puppy, a one year old.  They identified the problems as pee/poop in the house, constant humping their residence dog, breaking out of its enclosure, jumping on people, nipping at hands, leash pulling, counter surfing, barking when confined, afraid of stairs, relunctant to get in a car.  The mom said the dog broke her nose when the dog jump up on here when she was on her knees.  Wow, this dog would be a gold mine for the generalized dog trainer. 

I did house this dog for a couple of days while the dog was enroute from the shelter to this foster family home.  I met and I knew this dog from a couple of days observation.  I met with the family to pick up the dog and spent time watching them and the dog interact.  Yep, all the bad behaviors were there, pulling on the leash, jumping on them, nipping at their hands.  I took the leash and went on a short walk, a vigorous walk with the dog close to me....the dog had a flat collar on.  I gave the dog a snack with the food in the fist of my hand and if I felt teeth, my fist tighted, if I felt tongue, then my fist relaxed.  The dog was relunctant to go in my car.  I did two circles with the dog and the dog hopped right in.  All of these fixes took seconds to do and the couple commented that this in not the same dog that they were fostering.  Since the dog has been here, and admittedly its only been a couple of days, I have not experience any of the behaviors the couple talked about.  The only one I have seen is that the dog does anxious at the beginning when confined alone in the kennel.  To resolve, I'll give him a kennel mate.   Give the dog what its wants, satisfy the dog's needs, and then you won't have behavior problems.  If you are consistent in giving the dog what it wants, then the future urgency of that want, will diminish and also the unwanted behavior.

Just jump in here with a small tidbit -- I rarely comment on the training posts because I just plain don't fit in anybuddy's 'camp' because this gal just don't like camping!! (sorry, can't resist the pun).

David and I notice constantly that we just don't have the typical problems a lot of people do simply because we're proactive.  Sure -- maybe some would call it micro-managing our dogs, but for us it's just common sense not to give them the opportunity TO mis-behave. 

We got Luna as a 9 month old "wild child" who was essentially turned in as incorrigible (doggie daycare 24/7 & 365 days a year) so she was awesomely 'socialized' but sucked at human/dog relations. 

Now we've got a 6 month old "puppy" who mostly lived her early life outside (because she was 'stinky' from demodex) so "socialization" has been the watchword cos she "ain't never had none" *sigh*.  

Two vastly different breeds but from polar opposite situations -- altho NOT different in that neither had any real training or working with a human. 

BUT -- wow.  Luna was 9999% more of a wild handful than Tinkerbell could ever think of being.  Tink is faster, more 'mischevious' and frankly more the normal "puppy" whereas Luna was just out and out defiant in many ways. 

But ... it's not a big deal.  And very soon (soon as the hot weather breaks down here) it's gonna be back to training 101 for both of them.  But they aren't 'problems' because we don't give them the opportunity.  We focus on them -- not television or whatever else. 

I think, like DPU's point, we just plain pay closer attention than John Q Public.  Most people aren't good at anything other than "multi-tasking" in this world -- they seem to think they should be able to walk the dog, listen to their IPod, carry on a telephone conversation and "power walk" all at the same time -- and if the dog is pulling on leash it's annoying and distracting from all their other priorities. 

When I'm with the dog they get my full attention.  Things go better that way.  But I'd probably have my hair torn out by the roots or I would have quit long ago if I tried to be a professional trainer.  People just aren't fun usually -- most of the time they wouldn't know the 'answer' staring them in the face because it's not the answer they want.

DPU, what sort of things was the dog not getting in the first foster home, that you provided, that made all that typical adolescent behavior disappear? 

DPU

So I can see how a trainer can get frustrated.   So maybe to avoid frustration and the need to rant on a dog forum, the trainer should take an inventory of their quality experience. 

Just to offer a different perspective. I realize that my viewpoint, let alone that of pro trainers with an assortment of experience and education doesn't compare to your knowledge (and, no, I'm not being sarcastic. I'm following the descriptions you gave in this post and am simply consenting to your superiority for just a moment) but bear with me just a moment, if you desire to do so.

Some of the cookie cutter methods work well. The problem is that they are not applied as directed by the client, with excuses ranging from not enough patience to it's too hard to I can't seem to get the hang of it, whathaveyou. Now, to apply a perspective that you might grasp, imagine telling one of your prospective families who are wishing to adopt the program you describe. And they don't complete it. For the purpose of this statement, I'm saying you're right, in whatever you have to say. And you tell people. And they refuse to believe you or won't practice the program you give, in spite of your successes with it. And you tell them a number of times. Or a large percentage of the families you deal with just don't get it, even though you spoke English and in clear and common phrases. Would you not get a little frustrated?

Now, to back out a bit, are you not ranting against a number of pro dog trainers and programs that you feel have failed you? I believe you are entitled to rant. And so are others.

ron2

Now, to apply a perspective that you might grasp, imagine telling one of your prospective families who are wishing to adopt the program you describe. And they don't complete it. For the purpose of this statement, I'm saying you're right, in whatever you have to say. And you tell people. And they refuse to believe you or won't practice the program you give, in spite of your successes with it. And you tell them a number of times. Or a large percentage of the families you deal with just don't get it, even though you spoke English and in clear and common phrases. Would you not get a little frustrated?

Now, to back out a bit, are you not ranting against a number of pro dog trainers and programs that you feel have failed you? I believe you are entitled to rant. And so are others.

First, I tell my successes because I continuously bring in multiple fosters at a time to live with me for a while, some funny looking dogs with some very weird behavior.  I learn something new from each one and can then do a better job on the next one.  I just find it so strange that members here elect to manage a behavior, like counter surfing when that doesn't happen here... so the obvious answer is the owner is creating the behavior.

Second, I define how I think I can help the dog.  In my example from the previous post, I had a choice to instruct/train the family and have the dog stay with them or take the dog with me.  Anytime a family wants to rehome a dog, they have reached their capacity and have no more to give.  My dog care philosphy requires a certain capacity based on patience, understanding, and time.  The best for this dog is to rehome to me, get the dog rehabbed and then find the family that will fit the dog, not fit the dog to the family, but the family to this dog.  Trainers are paid to train the family and my role is to rescue, rehab, and place.

Third, no, I am not ranting but actually advising the OP on how to cope with her paying customers.  Communiation is always better when the Service Provider can actually relate to the client's experience but how can that happen if the Service Provider has no like experience but book knowledge.  I would be best if the dog trainer disclosed upfront their actual quality experience with the breed, the behavior, and the type of environment the dog is living.