I don't understand why...

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy

     Funny, she never rants about the dogs she works with.  Why is that, do you think? Wink
     

     

     

    Maybe because I grew up under the tutelage of riding instructors who told me that it was "never the horse, always the rider".  And, while you do get the occasional horse with a screw loose, just as you get the occasional dog with a screw loose, for the most part, if the humans get it right, the dogs do, too.  But, when the humans get it wrong, it is generally the dog they blame, correct, punish, relinquish to a shelter, confine to the back yard, give away, abandon, PTS, etc...which is surely the saddest part. 

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    spiritdogs

    But, when the humans get it wrong, it is generally the dog they blame, correct, punish, relinquish to a shelter, confine to the back yard, give away, abandon, PTS, etc...which is surely the saddest part. 

    That to me should be enough for trainers to change their ways and offer more effective training focusing on the "whole" dog approach.  Give up advising those clients in a generalized way and offer the book knowledge and quality experience.

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    mudpuppy

    I see no need to train my dogs to do a lot of things until a problem arises.

    this attitude is the number one cause of dog deaths and dog-inflicted bites to people. And is the entire reason why Anne is ranting.

    Uh huh, I bet I make you angry, huh? Probably because you hate that anyone could do anything differently to you and succeed. Wink All the best with that.

     
    Ron, your attitude is admirable, and yet people can only be themselves and you can't blame them for that. There were loads of things I was going to do with Kivi Tarro because I knew I wouldn't like it when he thought of doing it, but I never got around to any of it until the problem presented itself. No biggy. We fixed it then. Kivi is already better trained and more reliable than Penny, but I think this is mostly because I'm just more motivated. I'm more motivated because I know what I want where with Penny I just wanted a dog. And that, I think, is largely the problem with the public. They just want a dog. Unless they have a vision for what they want and what they don't want out of that dog, why train until they discover something they don't like? I was taught dogs must be trained to at least sit and heel and lie down, and that's what Penny can do, if there's food around, but she is a great dog and it's all the things she's learnt from just hanging out with me that makes her a great dog. Kivi is heading the same way. Real training starts when you start going places and doing things together. You just need the basics to get you that far.

    I work for a lot of people that don't care about the things I am passionate about. I've found life is a lot kinder if you accept that not everyone is as passionate as you are, and accept that there will be casualties as a result. I caught a beautiful glider last month that will probably be dead in a year along with all her family and cousins because people don't care like I do. They will likely die a slow and stressful death. I know of people that call wildlife rescue after a bat has been caught in their netting for 3 days because they didn't like the smell of the one that died in it last year. That is like a knife to the gut for some of us, but you can't blame people for being who they are. All you can do is pick up the pieces and tell everyone you meet why your way is better and hope you can find a way to persuade them to believe you.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I work for a lot of people that don't care about the things I am passionate about. I've found life is a lot kinder if you accept that not everyone is as passionate as you are, and accept that there will be casualties as a result. I caught a beautiful glider last month that will probably be dead in a year along with all her family and cousins because people don't care like I do. They will likely die a slow and stressful death. I know of people that call wildlife rescue after a bat has been caught in their netting for 3 days because they didn't like the smell of the one that died in it last year. That is like a knife to the gut for some of us, but you can't blame people for being who they are. All you can do is pick up the pieces and tell everyone you meet why your way is better and hope you can find a way to persuade them to believe you.

    You are no different than I, it's just that your "rant" (maybe a bad use of the term) is considered more polite than mine by the folks who like to bat me (and mudpuppy) around here.  This sentiment pretty much captures it all, but I am not ever willing to concede that it's ok for these animals to be victimized, even if there's nothing I can about those people who choose to ignore me (and sometimes, they've also ignored four or five other trainers as well, so it has little to do with the competence of any one trainer).  I do what I can, and I rant the rest of the time.  Sue me.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

      They just want a dog. Unless they have a vision for what they want and what they don't want out of that dog, why train until they discover something they don't like?

    you're confusing training a dog in obedience and raising a well-mannered dog. NO ONE wants a dog who potties in the house, jumps up on people, counter-surfs, raids the garbage, pulls on the leash, bits kids who approach while the dog is eating- and these are all normal dog behaviors that most dogs will happily engage in unless taught otherwise. It's very easy to pro-actively prevent these problems through training; difficult to fix once the dog gets in the habit of it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sometimes, the dog owners are the horses.  

    Corvus - loved your post. Very touching, and very true.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    I know exactly where you are coming from Anne.  It's almost easier for me though because when I am called, almost always the only answer is to hand over the leash, take the dog out of the situation.  I see people who for whatever reason refuse to make any more effort, whether it's because of fear, or dislike of the dog, or distrust (often sadly mixed with affection), or complete incompetance to deal with the situation that they themselves have created.

    The only advantage you have over my position, though, is that I sometimes have to make the choice between working on a dog forever, or letting another dog take that dog's place, after taking responsibility for the incorrigible dog's life.  It's been a year since I've had to make that decision and I could gladly go the rest of my life without doing it ever again! 

    But back to people.  I can't let it get to me or I'd go crazy.  If I thought about it, the faces of those nice people who turn over the leash with a tearful smile, but who killed their dog just as inexorably as if they'd put the needle in - I'd just go bonkers.  

    Then there are others who just as tearfully turn over the leash, but I can't help but remember that I was called after the appointment to euthanize had been made.  That happened twice last year - Corrie Dhu and Coltrane were both such dogs.  Coltrane's new owner is wonderful.  I explained the situation he'd come from, and what he was likely to do if handled incorrectly, and he said, "People make the dogs they own."

    But consider this.  The average person is just that - average.  I can't expect the average person to operate at an above average level of attentiveness to their pets' needs, so my job is indeed to shape dogs that come here so that they fit in homes that can handle them.  Not the average home, but special homes that need their talents.

    What I tell the average person who is dealing with an above average dog - consider the positive, flip side of what your dog is doing.  The jumpy, overenthusiastic dog is the kind that will be loyal to the death - or at least a lifetime of wonderful offleash hikes, romping, and fetch games.  The whiny, demanding, destructive dog has great potential for all kinds of training, from circus tricks to wow your friends and bring joy during therapy visits, to casual obedience and rally.  The reactive dog is a candidate for formal sports training and even dabbling in work training.   And so on.

    Sometimes you can catch the imagination of the average person and inspire them to above-averageness!   And if they don't, well, they are average, what can you expect?  I just hope they find professional help before it's too late - sorry Anne.  That's where you come in.

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove

    Sometimes you can catch the imagination of the average person and inspire them to above-averageness!

     

    This whole thread is one of the reasons I hesitate to train professionally, and the above quote is why I still toy with the idea.

    I love dogs, but I don't love people, and I imagine I would get frustrated with JPQ owner much faster than Anne or the other professionals on the board. It takes more patience than I think I have to find a way to communicate with most owners who are lazy or don't care enough, and give them a reason to do the work.

    A rant every now and again, seems like a healthy way to get it off your chest and go back to work to me.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Dog_ma

    Sometimes, the dog owners are the horses.  

    Corvus - loved your post. Very touching, and very true.  

     

    True, Dog_ma, but you seem to think that I regularly treat my clients to a rant, or somehow treat them poorly - nothing could be further from the truth.  I take extraordinary care with all my clients, regardless how they got to me, how they  got their dogs (even the designer ones), or how they never do their homework.  I think you are confusing my obviously mistaken notion that I could express my frustration to a group of committed dog people with my life outside this forum. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pit_Pointer_Aussie
    This whole thread is one of the reasons I hesitate to train professionally, and the above quote is why I still toy with the idea.

    I love dogs, but I don't love people, and I imagine I would get frustrated with JPQ owner much faster than Anne or the other professionals on the board. It takes more patience than I think I have to find a way to communicate with most owners who are lazy or don't care enough, and give them a reason to do the work.

     

    Well if the owner is in a class working with a trainer (any trainer, PetSmart, Cesar lover, whatever) you're at least working with SOME interest in addressing the issues.  It's the ones who don't ever do ANYTHING with the dog who drive me crazy.  I nearly throttled a woman at the SPCA on Sunday who was harassing the receptionist to take the dog she'd adopted a year prior back (she had it outside in her car). Their policy is they don't take owner turn ins.  The Richmond AC shelter is closed on Sundays.  The receptionist was asking have you tried this, have you tried that, we have behavior specialists who will work a few sessions with you for free, have you been to any of our classes, etc.  The woman's answers were all No, No, No, you have to take this dog TODAY or I'll let him loose in the street, he's just crazy, can't be controlled, etc.  When the receptionist left to get someone higher up, the idiot came over and started loving on Indie.  I couldn't even speak, I just lead him away and went to the training room because if I'd opened my mouth, I'd have screamed.  It's the same refrain at the shelter.  They have no interest in training the dog whatsoever, but then want to adopt another one, thinking that dogs come out of the box good or bad, behaved or not behaved and have no interest in doing anything to teach the dog.  I shudder to think what these people's kids are like and think they should've just bought a dog statue  if they just wanted a decoration!!!  Angry

    /rant 

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove

    The only advantage you have over my position, though, is that I sometimes have to make the choice between working on a dog forever, or letting another dog take that dog's place, after taking responsibility for the incorrigible dog's life.  It's been a year since I've had to make that decision and I could gladly go the rest of my life without doing it ever again! 

    I have never never gone there nor has that thought or way of thinking have ever crossed my mind.  I am limited in my experience with problem dogs and have been presented with many problems.  But, I am always willing to learn and try something different.  I just don't believe a dog that is not ill can't be made normal.  I truly believe you can save them all.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I just don't believe a dog that is not ill can't be made normal

    That's nice.  Once a dog comes here it's usually bitten at least once and sometimes multiple times.  If I adopt a dog out knowing that history, and the dog seriously injures someone, that's my fault.

    I can't just hope something will happen if I believe it to be real.  Faith won't turn an aggressive, kid-hating dog that kills cats and chickens into a lovable family pet.  I've got to have a real, point-by-point game plan and facts to point to, and a strategy for the future management of such a dog out of my care, so that if something goes wrong (and so far so good), we can go over the facts again and see whether it was a preventable event.  I can say, "If X happens, CALL ME, and we will go from there."  X will not be a bite, but rather some subtle sign of reversion.

    Almost all aggression boils down to preventable events.  As Anne said, training and management can step in and sometimes dogs can be 100% turned around.  Sometimes they can come back 50%, and I've got outlets for those.   Sometimes 25% is enough if their aggression pattern is highly predictable, and I can place them with professionals.  Corrie Dhu was one of those, to pick a recent example.

    Other dogs have the canine equivalent of mental illness.  If I were an owner and not a trainer on a limited budget, with limited space (yes, sadly it comes down to that), I might be able to "save them all."  There's a couple of refuges I trust to take dogs that are nice, "but" - can't be trusted around people that aren't professionals.  They love to work with me because the dogs I send are fully trained and often do tricks and whatnot - they are real ambassadors for the value of such places.

    I know there are people who disagree with me, but I do believe euthanasia has its place in behavioral rehab.  If a dog had a painful condition that would doom it to a lifetime of isolation, confined movement, and the only people he or she ever met other than vets and the owner, met the dog with fear and loathing, one would surely begin to entertain the idea of releasing such a dog from its suffering.  If I've done all I can and still the dog will be doomed to a lifetime of fear and distrust, not to mention its own confusion and dealing with whatever drives or illnesses are creating the aggression  - it's time to visit the idea of euthanasia.

    I've euthanized about half a dozen dogs in my lifetime.  One was fear aggressive to the point where he wouldn't let people in his kennel, or eat, and was starving himself to death.  To move him from one point to the other we had to have a vet dart him.  I hope I never see something like that again.  He was line bred three times on a known fear aggressive dog.   One was so aggressive towards children that he tore two kennels apart trying to get at my kids, after he arrived.  If he was on a leash and saw a child, he'd go up the leash and bite YOU trying to get you to release him.  I worked with him for about two weeks and then had to let him go. 

    The other four had a seizure disorder somewhat common among Border Collies, males between 2 and 3 years old.  It's idiopathic in nature and manifests as random acts of violence (no pattern).  Mixed breeds seem even more subject to this for some reason - two of the ones I worked with were mixes (one with cocker spaniel and the other with collie, known mixes).  Nicholas Dodman did some work in this area about ten years ago.  He had mixed results treating with pheno, but when one of these makes it into rescue, we can't take a chance that the aggression will return in the future, as it often does.

    A seventh dog was a female who started out very aggressive, seemed to improve after about six months of work, then after coming down with ehrlichia at the herding trainer's home, became extremely and randomly aggressive, as well as experiencing some minor seizures on a regular basis.  The vets assume that the tick disease brought about the same brain changes as in the above dogs, but caused by the disease.  I had a nice old dog who came to me with tick disease and developed pheno-responsive epilepsy, so I knew that could happen.

    I believe you can start out assuming that this one can be saved.  But I don't think it helps me in what I do to think, They must all live - in whatever life that means.  Being saved is sometimes a distinct concept to me, from being alive just because it makes me feel better about myself. 

    We had to dart and sedate that fear aggressive dog, just to get me and the vet in there safely.  I had set it up before this dog arrived, so I could slide my scooper under the bottom of the kennel panel and change the shavings, so they were clean enough to lay in.  For about ten minutes, while the vet and tech got set up, I held that dogs head.  I'll never forget the transformation that came over his face as the drugs relaxed his brain - for the first time he could really see things without the haze of fear, enjoy the feeling of hands that weren't rough.  Then the doctor gave him the final injection.  He sighed and closed his eyes (something I'd never ever seen him do) - and he'll never know fear again. 

    And he'll live forever in my memory as that dog -  not the victim of bad breeding who seriously injured two children on separate occasions, plus another professional trainer - but instead he is the one with the brilliant, soft eyes, and clever face, who enjoyed that last minute of stroking.

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs

    Dog_ma

    Sometimes, the dog owners are the horses.  

    Corvus - loved your post. Very touching, and very true.  

     

    True, Dog_ma, but you seem to think that I regularly treat my clients to a rant, or somehow treat them poorly

     

    I don't, actually. And as I said in a post that got deleted, I believe in the release of ranting. But where you rant - makes a lot of difference. On a board that is known for having a history of "sides" and bad feelings - not always the place.

    And you *do* present yourself as a professional, here. It is reasonable that people might expect professional behavior.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove

    I just don't believe a dog that is not ill can't be made normal

    That's nice. 

    Your stories are of dogs who unmistakenly have an illness.  Although I have no idea how I would handle those situations, I would find a way to cope, to help, to ease, knowing the ending would be the same.

    But you matched effort to rehab, euthanasia, and another dog in the waiting.  That is a place I will not go.  Professional Trainers can do the same, give up on the really needy and go on to the next maybe easier dog. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU

    brookcove

    I just don't believe a dog that is not ill can't be made normal

    That's nice. 

    Your stories are of dogs who unmistakenly have an illness.  Although I have no idea how I would handle those situations, I would find a way to cope, to help, to ease, knowing the ending would be the same.

    But you matched effort to rehab, euthanasia, and another dog in the waiting.  That is a place I will not go.  Professional Trainers can do the same, give up on the really needy and go on to the next maybe easier dog. 

     

     

    I, for one, am not in the habit of giving up on dogs, but I also know that it's my responsibility to make my clients aware of the dangers that they might be living with. So, often, it's the client who decides that they cannot accept that much liability.  My life would be easier if all rescues would temperament test their dogs, at least to the extent of ruling out separation anxiety, food aggression, and whether the dog is ok with other dogs, cats, and people.   It's just not fair, for example, to adopt out a dog with food aggression to a family with kids, and expect them to live a dog-centric life with the possibility of a child being bitten.  You may WANT to save them all, but you can't, and it is sinful that so many good dogs die in shelters.  But, it's also sinful that so many unsuspecting people get saddled with dogs that are way too much for them to deal with, and then they are so attached that it's an impossible heartbreak to give the dog up if the dog's behavior is a deal breaker.  That happens more than you know, because most people can train sit, or lie down, but they cannot devote themselves to thousands of dollars in training, medication, behavior modification, etc. when they have four kids who need shoes and school supplies, and they really only wanted Lassie, not Cujo.