I don't understand why...

I guess I'm just not on the forum enough anymore. I genuinely took Anne's post as WHY do people respond this way after they screwed things up to begin with.  Hense, my first post, trying to explain from MY vantage point why people are quick with the BUTS....why I was quick with the BUTS.

It is very frustrating to talk with people who ask questions yet refuse to accept the answers.  And that's where I thought Anne's post was heading.  Basically, "if you are going to disagree with every suggestion I offer, why bother to ask?" sort of thing.

No where did I see an invitation to tell her everything WE see that she does wrong in her posting here.  Again, maybe I'm just not on the forum enough these days.  I know that I tend to post differently than I speak in real life.  I tend to be very blunt in person, but here I've learned to temper what I have to say a bit, most of the time.  So I'm guessing that Anne is also at least a bit different in the way she deals with those clients than the way she deals with questions or comments here.

I took the OP as a general vent, that I none the less tried to answer, basically to try and provide insight for her from us "JQP" type of owners.  I sure didn't expect to see this thread become what it has.  Sad.

That cross must get heavy.

I don't see the world in such black and white terms as positive vs. corrective, Democrat vs. Republican, etc. Ironically, Dems and Repubs aren't as different as they think. On the scale of political philosophies, they are very close. But like us, they get hung up on small differences.

I expect my dogs to listen to me because I'm the boss! I would say leader, but there is a whole bunch of baggage associated with the word.  Boss isn't the right word either. My take on leading is that you have to get people (or dogs) to want to follow. So my dogs listen not because I'll hurt them if they don't, or because there's roast beef waiting. They listen because I have demonstrated over time that life is good when you follow mom's lead. I will let you know when I'm displeased, but I won't scare you. I'll go out of my way to help you succeed.  What I earn is respect,and cooperation.

Don't get me wrong, I train with lots of yummies and reinforce randomly things that are already known. But my goal is a dog who will listen not because there is a direct treat at stake, but because we've developed a relationship of cooperation and trust.

Chuffy

In any case, I see where she is coming from completely.... but its not me she needs to educate IMO.  Nor is it you!  MY point is that focusing on what people are doing wrong in the training class is not helpful.... Just as focusing on what your dog (or child or husband) is doing wrong is not all that helpful. 

I don't focus on what my dogs are doing wrong, a quick verbal will let the dog know what he shouldn't do, and then it's on to good things again.I live with five dogs, last year the number was six, as I mentioned before dogs correct each other and then it's right back to normal activity. If I have to worry about dogs shutting down by letting them know a certain behavior is not accepted then I better separate all of them all of the time, as they correct each other.

When it comes to spiritdogs' credentials, I have no doubt she has them, but coming here and calling people "Crank and Yank " owners because they don't follow her advice to a "T" is offending.She prefers to train with food 24/7, which I find is over the top, I like to use a combination of things and methods.

  I mentioned before dogs correct each other and then it's right back to normal activity.

ah, the old "dogs do it to each other so it's fine for me to do it" excuse. Open your mind- positive punishment works, yes, but it's also been resoundingly proven to be the least effective method of modifying behavior. The methods you have used for years work but are suboptimal. And despite all denials from folks determined to correct dogs every owner-delivered positive punishment causes damage- damage to the relationship, damage to the dog's williness to try.

When it comes to spiritdogs' credentials, I have no doubt she has them, but coming here and calling people "Crank and Yank " owners because they don't follow her advice to a "T" is offending.She prefers to train with food 24/7, which I find is over the top, I like to use a combination of things and methods.

Lying about how I train isn't adding to your case.  I have certainly never said that I use food 24/7, you said that.  Sure, I use food but I also use other motivational tools - a lot.  The concept that you can't seem to grasp is that a reinforcer is anything the DOG wants.  So, if your dog wants attention, that's a reinforcer.  If he wants to go out, then getting out is a reinforcer.  If he wants to catch the frisbee, then that toy is a reinforcer.  All of those things can be used to reward the dog for learning a new behavior, or complying with a request.  The fact is that to most dogs, food is the reinforcer they like best - but, as we all know, there are some, like Sequoyah, who will ignore roast beef if she thinks she will get the frisbee instead.  Honest, I don't walk around with liver falling out of every pocket and orifice every day of the week, or stumble over cookie crumbs as I go around an agility course.  It is intermittent reinforcement that keeps a behavior strong, but the fact is that the reinforcer can just as easily be "I get to chase that squirrel now" as it is "salmon brownies".

mudpuppy

  I mentioned before dogs correct each other and then it's right back to normal activity.

ah, the old "dogs do it to each other so it's fine for me to do it" excuse. Open your mind- positive punishment works, yes, but it's also been resoundingly proven to be the least effective method of modifying behavior. The methods you have used for years work but are suboptimal. And despite all denials from folks determined to correct dogs every owner-delivered positive punishment causes damage- damage to the relationship, damage to the dog's williness to try.

You obviously have me stamped as some evil and rough dog owner.....believe what you want.

I have to deal with rescues and I have to make sure all of them get along, there is a reason for my method, my dogs have to know that I can handle any situation at hand or the carefully instilled trust and leadership can go down the drain fast. You might not understand that there are times when I have to intervene at a moments notice and there is no room for treats of any kind, or even toys, heck any kind of reinforcer. So, please, take off the blinders, you might be able to understand a little more of the real world.

I have no issue with my dogs ' willingness to try or wanting to learn, as a matter of fact I have been successful with many dogs' return to a good and happy life.

spiritdogs

Lying about how I train isn't adding to your case.  I have certainly never said that I use food 24/7, you said that.  Sure, I use food but I also use other motivational tools - a lot.  The concept that you can't seem to grasp is that a reinforcer is anything the DOG wants. 

Well, I know what a reinforcer is for any of my dogs, and I am here to tell you that food is not the magical answer. You know how Huskies can be, Huskies could care less about any kind of food if they are in full drive mode, even a toy or praise will be ignored. The one thing that these type of dogs have taught me is how little they care about anything when they are in their drive mode and having to adjust to this was a big awakening for me years ago. While food has it's place in training there are many situations where it doesn't mean jack to the dog......

The reason I brought up food is because you were claiming people are too lazy to even take Cheerios on a walk......you know better than that.

I have tried to post a number of times but I always end up deleting it and saying, awe forget it.

I believe that everyone on this forum has learned a thing or two from others on this forum just from being members here, listening and learning new things.  I know I have and SD was a big influence.  I remember one of my first earlier posts here was an argument between me and SD regarding leash corrections and Ron jumped right in and sided with me – I felt happy that a seasoned member sided with me against this "force to be reckoned with" (Spiritdogs). Four years later and I agree now that there are alternatives to leash corrections.  And since then Spiritdogs was able to turn Ron (allies as we were) into a clicker geek, go figure...

Chuffy

And what about my earlier point, which I don't think was addressed - why is it that if a dog doesn't get something right away even after you have gone to great pains to teach him, SD's first question is most probably: does he REALLY understand what I am asking?  Yet, humans don't learn right away and they are "lazy".  Do you see?

I understand you, now. But what if the person still resists or has a list of "buts" after the third time you've explained it? I think that's the problem. Or doesn't want to apply the exercises and thinks a one hour session for one week ought to take care of it. Or can't seem to get the timing down, at all. Some things you have to work for. I'm not saying that people here who can't use a clicker aren't trying hard enough. They certainly work at it with other markers, which is the whole point. And your question is if we can extend such patience to dogs, why not to humans? To whom much is given, much is expected.

All I know is that next time I decide to have a rant, even a small one, I'll keep in mind that this is not the place for me to have one.  Everyone else, but not me...

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spiritdogs

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Actually a better spin off would be who would be more likely to use more food rewards/corrections, males or females?  Not a good spin off for this forum since the majority is women.  I do believe dogs do recognize human gender and shape some of their behavior because of it.

spiritdogs

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Sorry if this is off topic but I feel I need to say it to everyone--just be thankful you have a dog that's healthy enough to train. 

This may be off topic too but why can everyone else on the forum rant about their JOB, their neighbor, people at the dog park, I could go on for ever so etc. Oh ya right they aren`t dog trainers.  BUT just because she is a dog trainer and this is a dog forum all is let loose on her. She can`t rant about her job as everyone else here on the forum just because of what she does. How sad.

spiritdogs -  I for one love to read your posts and your replies to help people and I have learned a lot from you. Thanks

mollymoo

This may be off topic too but why can everyone else on the forum rant about their JOB, their neighbor, people at the dog park, I could go on for ever so etc. Oh ya right they aren`t dog trainers.  BUT just because she is a dog trainer and this is a dog forum all is let loose on her. She can`t rant about her job as everyone else here on the forum just because of what she does. How sad.

spiritdogs -  I for one love to read your posts and your replies to help people and I have learned a lot from you. Thanks

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