I don't understand why...

snownose

I still don't see how one can train a dog to never receive any kind of interruption/correction for the rest of it's life.

Was the the original point?  I didn't perceive it that way.  Of course, our dogs, continue to learn and we continue training for the life of the dog (which will include corrections).  I think the point was that should we decide to start training at an earlier age and should we have preconceived ideas about what we don't want our dogs to do generally; life for our dogs would be a little less stressful.

CoBuHe

snownose

I still don't see how one can train a dog to never receive any kind of interruption/correction for the rest of it's life.

Was the the original point?  I didn't perceive it that way.  Of course, our dogs, continue to learn and we continue training for the life of the dog (which will include corrections).  I think the point was that should we decide to start training at an earlier age and should we have preconceived ideas about what we don't want our dogs to do generally; life for our dogs would be a little less stressful.

My post was directed at mudpuppy who basically laid that claim.

 "Breeders, rescues and shelters need to put training requirements in the contract."

glenmar

And, no, I didn't specify professional training as a condition of adoption.

Maybe it's because I've never read a contract with training requirements, but could you clarify what those requirements might be if not professional? Are you suggesting that a buyer or adopter would simply have to agree to train the dog, even if it is just their own personal training? Would it specify what you must train - recall, sit stay? How would you know if the owner had complied or fulfilled the contract?  

CoBuHe

snownose

I still don't see how one can train a dog to never receive any kind of interruption/correction for the rest of it's life.

Was the the original point?  I didn't perceive it that way.  Of course, our dogs, continue to learn and we continue training for the life of the dog (which will include corrections).  I think the point was that should we decide to start training at an earlier age and should we have preconceived ideas about what we don't want our dogs to do generally; life for our dogs would be a little less stressful.

Thanks, CoBuHe, at least one member here understood the point.  And, to the people who thought this had anything to do with any other thread, it did not (although you can all stand up guilty as charged if you want to), it had to do with some calls I've taken lately in my own business that make me think what a shame it is that people don't learn how to do what mudpuppy and I have been able to do, and what some of the rest of you have done.

By the way, "leave it" is not a correction, it's a *cue* that means "whatever you were about to touch, instead look at me and get your butt over here, because the human always has something better for you".  Believe it or not, my dogs love to hear "leave it - come".  Why?  Not because they think I will correct them more strongly if they don't, but because they have been conditioned by many repetitions of "I leave the biscuit and instead get roast beef" that even when the forbidden item is a fleeing cat, they turn and come back to see what I have for them!  They think, leave biscuit, get roast beef;leave roast beef get cat food, leave cat food get tripe, leave tripe get f-r-i-s-b-e-e, etc.  And, because she's so conditioned, the one time that I don't have the frisbee (or name the dog's favorite reward), the dog leaves the cat alone anyway, and forgives me.  

DPU, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.  Nowhere on this board have I ever said that I never tell people how to use a punisher.  What you forgot to mention from the other thread is that I was offering a solution as an alternative to using a shock device!!!!  I'm sure that even the people who thought that the scat mat was the only environmental punishment available to them to deal with a countersurfing dog would be relieved to think that there might be something less aversive that they could use.  The x-mat is akin to the sensation you might get walking on a pebbly beach if you have sensitive feet.  But it often does make you get off the rocks and keep to the sand.  If an x-mat saves a dog from swallowing a cooked chicken carcass, then it's probably worth it, especially in the context of an owner who might not know how, or does not care to clicker train the dog to stay away from the counter.
 

denise m

 "Breeders, rescues and shelters need to put training requirements in the contract."

glenmar

And, no, I didn't specify professional training as a condition of adoption.

 

Maybe it's because I've never read a contract with training requirements, but could you clarify what those requirements might be if not professional? Are you suggesting that a buyer or adopter would simply have to agree to train the dog, even if it is just their own personal training? Would it specify what you must train - recall, sit stay? How would you know if the owner had complied or fulfilled the contract?  

 

Some breeders now require that the new owner take puppy class before the dog reaches a certain age, and the proof is a photocopy of the graduation certificate, which could certainly be verified by calling the trainer who issued it.  Some breeders specify the type of training, and some go so far as to require such things as raw feeding, although that would be a bit harder to prove. 

spiritdogs

DPU, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.  Nowhere on this board have I ever said that I never tell people how to use a punisher. 

Not ashamed at all, puzzled why that would be said.  Yes, the quoter has advised dog owners to use punishment but what was suprising to me was it was the first recommendation and it was characterized as an excellent suggestion.  A punishing device is a punishment inflicted on the dog by the human.  A dog's reaction to an environment setup or booby trap as I like to call it, can be very mild or it can be traumatic.  Why risk it and why recommend as the first and best choice.  To me, that recommendation contradicts the Opening Statement of "I wish they would ask how they should train the dog to do things right!!!"  The expected answer I would want from a Positive Trainer is first try and anlyze why the dog feels the need to do the beahvior.  And there are all sorts of reasons that has nothing to do with the a dog looking for a snack.

This past Saturday, I picked up two fosters from the vet clinic.  They had a long journey coming from Missouri.  I lead them on a leash from the clinic to car and they hopped right in.  Once in the car, I took the leashes off.  When I got home, I opened the car door and the dogs could hop right out and into the backyard but they didn't, they just sat in the car.  I knew they had to go pee because it was a long car ride so I did not understand why they did not leave the car.  I tried coaxing them from the backyard but no luck.  I sat in the backyard for about 15 minutes and just waited quietly to see if they come out on their own.  When that didn't happen, I went to the car, sat on the door ledge and petted them.  I tried nudging them forward but when they gave me a slight resistance, I stopped.  Me and fosters had a lot to do.  The fosters had to get use to the yard and smells and hear my residence dogs.  They had to meet my residence dogs and they had to explore the inside of the house.  They were not afraid, they just sat in the car.  I decided to leash them and lead them out of the car.  I put on the leashes and out they went on their own.  Once in the yard, I took off the leashes, Introduced them to my residence dogs and then it was time to go in the house.  Same thing, they would not go in the house, they just sat there.  I put the leashes on them and in they went.  They explored the house and then in time it was outside time again.  Same thing like the car, they just sat there.  I put the leashes on them and off they went-out the back door.  Strange but then I remembered the organization told me that these two dogs were in a shelter for over a year and the shelter had no fenced enclosure.  The dog's pee/poop excercise was always on the leash. 

For one of the fosters, I still have to do the leash thing.  This is a good example of when confronted with a certain behavior in a dog, no one training technique, be it positive, punishment, or environmental would work well.  I had to decipher the expectations and wants of the dog and when I got that right, the behavior disappeared.

I still don't see why "ah-ah" can't be a cue to "stop what you are doing." 

I think it can or it is.  I never thought of it as a cue, I use ah ah, att, att all the time - that is my way of saying stop that or don't think about it and they stop.  Since River has a good recall usually just saying "come" changes his direction.  But I am not always there when he smell the garbage or somthing on the counter so I manage those things just in case.

sillysally

I still don't see why "ah-ah" can't be a cue to "stop what you are doing." 

It is, difference is you don't hand out a treat every single time.....could you imagine handing a treat to your child everytime you told him/her not to touch something? You would have the Michelin poster child.........lol

In response to the OP, I think they deserve some credit for being in class at all.  They could of just put the dog in the yard or gave it away.  Especially if they are first time owners, you don't realize what you might be in for. 

And, I as an owner of a difficult dog can see where the'd say "BUT" because they want a quick fix.  If your dog is acting out and you have 20 minutes before you need to start getting ready for work, you want a realistic way to handle the issue.  Not, some "ideal" way that the dog takes forever to pay attention too.

CoBuHe:

snownose:

I still don't see how one can train a dog to never receive any kind of interruption/correction for the rest of it's life.

 

Was the the original point?  I didn't perceive it that way.  Of course, our dogs, continue to learn and we continue training for the life of the dog (which will include corrections).  I think the point was that should we decide to start training at an earlier age and should we have preconceived ideas about what we don't want our dogs to do generally; life for our dogs would be a little less stressful.

 

 

My post was directed at mudpuppy who basically laid that claim.

I have three adult dogs in my household who have never in their entire lives received a correction or positive punishment, verbal or otherwise.  What sort of behaviors do your adult, trained dogs end up needing corrections for?

If they were to see an animal while we are roaming in the woods ....that could be anything....or not too long ago there was a snake on our property that was interesting to them.....I gave a verbal "Ah, Ah" and that does the job.

I am just amazed what kind of robot like dogs you have and that none are ever stimulated enough to investigate......or, perhaps they have encountered it all and you never have to utter a word.

I still think that a leave it and ah, ah, are the same thing.......if you use a....leave it......do you reward each time?.

mudpuppy

I have three adult dogs in my household who have never in their entire lives received a correction or positive punishment, verbal or otherwise.  What sort of behaviors do your adult, trained dogs end up needing corrections for?

mudpuppy

There are some dogs I'd never train this way. However, a correction does not automatically shut down every dog - if it is appropriate for the dog and the situation. Just my 2cents.

 
absolutely true. Super-soft sensitive Baxter turns into a hard, insensitive dog when his prey drive kicks in, and then I have used minor corrections to get his attention back on me with no adverse impact on his psyche.
Every dog is different.

Hmmmmmmm.  What to think?  What to think?  Hmmmmmmm.

spiritdogs

 ...the first question that many people ask is "How do I correct (name the bad behavior).  Or, how do I stop my dog from (name the bad behavior).

JMHO, but I wish they would ask how they should train the dog to do things right!!!  Most of the problems owners run into are because they didn't start training the dog early enough, don't really know how to train properly, and make all the common mistakes in managing issues like house training, recall training, and allowing leash pulling.  I run out of fingers and toes quickly counting the number of adolescent dogs who only end up in class because now they are not so cute any more, are becoming more independent, and driving the owner crazy with completely normal canine behavior that could have been molded into something more acceptable to humans had they arrived at class when Fido was 12 weeks old instead of 9 months old.  Then, when I tell them how to handle a problem, the first word out of their mouths is *BUT*.  So, the dogs end up with prong collars, lots of yanking, even swatting (you'd be surprised how many people actually admit swatting the dog.) Ugh.  Sorry, just a trainer rant.

 

You what?  Are you serious???

The people coming to you are out of their depth and looking for help.  And they are asking questions and being honest and frank about what they don't understand (albeit sometimes in ignorance of how ignorant they are!)

HOW many more don't come to you, don't go to anyone.... and struggle on alone until giving up and dumping the dog?  Whine about THEM.  Thank yourucky stars for your clients.

Instead of moaning about what your clients are doing WRONG, focus on what they have done right with the dog, even if it's only the smallest thing.  Why is it that if a DOG gets something wrong, it's because the owner failed to teach X.... but when one of your clients gets something wrong it's not because you failed to teach Y?  It's all about TEACHING surely?   

Just some thoughts  

 Well, apparently you all seem very anxious to batter me, but in reality, I'm not so much criticizing individuals as I am being still shocked that 14,000 years after we domesticated the dog, so many humans still don't understand them.  You need to understand that when I talk to clients, I am sympathetic, helpful, and not in a rant.  That I do privately, so that they don't ever realize how disheartening it is to see so many dogs suffering needlessly through misunderstanding.  I think that it's far better to rant here in a general way, than at anyone who does come looking for help from me in my professional capacity.  Incidentally, in class, my students DO get reinforced for each small bit of progress, and that's why I have so much repeat business, but I still feel badly for dogs whose owners don't get it, whether they come to a class or not.  One of my clients just left me a great review on one of the ad sites, and she has brought five of her dogs to my classes and play groups.  And, I was NOT ranting about what happens AFTER I teach, my comment was more directed to the natural human tendency to want to fix what's wrong, rather than reward what's right, and usually that's how the dogs come in, not how they go out, from my classes.  It's more about my wanting to get them in earlier so that the owners don't get caught up in that and end up disliking the dog before it's a year old... I resent that you would even infer that I don't thank my lucky stars for my clients, once they come.  Most of my clients come in as regular pet owners, and end up being able to train, and to help their friends and neighbors, too.  I just wish more people would go somewhere and go early.  I should think that all reasonable dog people would want them to also.  And, yes it is frustrating to tell people how to manage their dogs correctly, and still have a few of them slap the prong on as they go out the door week after week.  I'm sure schoolteachers also get frustrated that Johnny fails to do his homework, and they, just like me, keep on trying.  But, sometimes, you just need to rant, so no apologies here for doing so.