I don't understand why...

Jewlieee

 Glenmar, I think that spiritdogs is venting about my post regarding corrections on a soft dog. In my case, it is just semantics. I do use positive training and reward for the behaviors that I do want. But imo, there are some things that I just don't want my dogs to do. Period. and I'm looking for the most direct way to make that happen.

I find the original posting here very strange.  Jewliee, in that other thread the OP did recommend punishment (gentle) and also to use a device that would deter the dog from behaving inappropiately.   I just don't understand why so many are hung up, stuck on defining their relationship with their dog as stimulus-response-reward/correction.  I think dog owners miss out on so much when the relationship part is not maximized.  Dogs will listen and comply with request and you don't have rigidly train for every single activity.  I have Petro my Great Dane, trained in nothing but COME and he always listens to me. 

For that other thread I think the best suggestion was when someone suggested the owner should gasp and ask the dog "what are you doing" and as I expected, it took 3 tries for both parties to connect and the bad behavior to stop.

JackieG

But many people don't understand that it is a life long process and when the dog gets a bad start and the owner wants a quick, cheap fix it is very hard not to rant sometimes.

Its a life long process if you are constantly in "control the dog" mode.  For each of my dogs, with the exception of Petro, I spent quality time teaching the dog basic obedience and their "job".  This education process has a beginning and has an end.  I don't recall ever having a behavior issue with my dogs once the education period is over and we start living our lives together.  What I see of late is that when someone does have a behavior problem, the advice is specific to the behavior and there is no consideration for the "whole" dog or the environment that the dog is living. 

glenmar

Breeders, rescues and shelters need to put training requirements right in the contract.  Many of them don't, yet this should be as critical as a spay/nueter clause in every adoption agreement.  Bottom line, if you educate the public, they are more willing to part with the almightly dollar to insure a long, loving relationship with the new family member.

I have to disagree with you on this. Training a dog IMO is not something that necessarily requires hiring a professional. There is so much reference material available in books, videos, forums and of course just plain common sense, that I think anyone who is seriously committed to having a well trained dog can do it on their own. For first time dog owners it is probably a good idea, but if you already have trained 1, 2 or 3 dogs I think requiring that person to hire a professional is unnecessary. Besides, not all dog trainers are created equal. I have read lots of stories where owners have been given (according to our members)  bad advice and offered questionable techniques.

I guess I can sympathize with Anne about having to deal with 9 month old pups that have not been well or properly trained but isn't that part of what being a dog trainer all about - helping owners solve problems?  Personally I think it is irresponsible to get a puppy and not do your best to train it. I don't necessarily agree that it is irresponsible, not to take your puppy to  a professional trainer.

Of course going to a professional trainer is NEVER a bad thing.  

My breeder does not have training requirements, but she simply will not release certain dogs to certain people.  For example, I'm getting a puppy out of parents that are both very intense, drivey, "up" dogs.  I know someone looking for a dog from the same breeder but wants it mostly as a pet and possible therapy dog so they are buying from a different litter, more laid back dogs.

I don't think a good breeder NEEDS training requirements, a good breeder can get to know prospective buyers enough to make the determination on whether their home is appropriate.  For some dogs that does involve group training, but some people are capable of training on their own and some dogs don't really need that.

The shelter where I volunteered does have training requirements on some dogs.  Ones that have had zero training and are in need of clear boundaries are not adopted unless the adoptor signs up for their classes as part of the adoption or provides proof of signing up somewhere else. 

spiritdogs

 ...the first question that many people ask is "How do I correct (name the bad behavior).  Or, how do I stop my dog from (name the bad behavior).

mudpuppy

it's some kind of mental block people have- they have trouble figuring out how to use positive methods to eliminate/prevent undesirable behaviors. It can be done. It can be done easily. It can be done quickly. You have to turn your thinking around though. Instead of thinking "I don't want my dog to jump up on people" you think "I want my dog to sit politely when greeting people". Instead of thinking "I don't want my dog lunging at passing cats" you think "I want my dog to walk politely on leash NO MATTER WHAT is going on around him".  Instead of thinking "I don't want my dogs raiding the garbage" you think "I want my dogs to walk past the garbage can without looking at it" . And hey presto non-corrective solutions THAT WORK suddenly present themselves.

mudpuppy

what anne is trying to say is that this IS NOT TRUE. If you teach the dog WHAT TO DO from day one you'll never run into a situation where you have to stop/ correct behavior.

Are you trying to say that "You" can train for any upcoming situation no matter what the situation is with any type of dog ?

Either you are a fortune teller or you have encountered every possible situation.....which is it?

I didn't read Glenda's remarks in the way you did Denise.  It seemed to me that she said that training requirements should be part of the contract...she didn't say hiring a professional trainer should be part of the contract.  As you say...owners can do it themselves.

I believe I understand Spiritdogs original post...it sounds to me like her wish is that people would begin training:

#1 much much earlier than most people do.

#2 anticipate what kinds of things you may not want your dog to do; and train accordingly so that those things can be avoided.  In other words and for example, if you have cats...train the wee puppy from the beginning how to act appropriately around cats.

I, for one, waited to take my GSD puppy, Heidi, to training classes until she was 7 months old; because at that point, I could see that I needed more than what I could handle/train.  I should have taken her at 4 months old.  Yes, from the day I brought her home, we introduced the basic sit and come, etc....but in hindsight, it would have been much better for her and me had we started earlier. 

I had always been taught to spend the first few months simply bonding with my pup and not to "stress" the pup with too much training; let the puppy be a puppy.  Worked well in the past with all of my other dogs...Heidi is the exception.  I now believe that hard tempered, willfull, highly active dogs require much more, much earlier.  Likely, if you get a dog from a breeder you will have a good idea what you may expect.  I realize its a whole 'nuther ball of wax with rescues. 

Dog_ma

 We continue on as before, rewarding calm and attentive leash walking behavior. 
 

Exactly my situation with Max ... except he isn't a puppy - he's four. Sometimes he lunges, sometimes he doesn't.  It can be another dog, a cat, a squirrel.  He does get his treats when he's walking calmly beside me, but sometimes the lure of a squirrel is just more important than the lure of a treat. He is getting better, but when he sees a squirrel running across the street in front of him and up a tree, followed closely by a cat in hot pursuit, it's just all too much for him. I have to remember to always be prepared for the lunge.

Joyce

Wow. This thread got unpleasant rather quickly.

I'm not online a lot. I didn't see the referenced thread.  I simply responded to a question posed.  I answered why I didn't start training with my dogs sooner.

I also "admitted" to using a prong as a training TOOL.  I don't think most trainers have a serious objection to that when and if you've tried kinder and gentler methods first and nothing else works.  Maybe I'm wrong, but Anne didn't give me a mental flogging for doing so.  I have a problem with folks who don't train their dogs, slap a prong on them and that's their walking collar for the rest of their lives.  And I kind of think that's what Anne was talking about too.  Remember, I had to go through the rabies series because of a rottie on a prong AND a flexi who decided that my leg looked like lunch.  Clearly the prong wasn't doing THAT dog any good.

I never specifically trained my gsd's, who are certainly independent thinkers, to not chase wildlife.  I did however, install a very reliable "leave it" and that pretty much covers each and every situation we've encountered.  I'm not sure why that sort of training can't work in other situations as well.  I've never taught them specifically not to herd children either, but, by golly, I taught them not to herd ME and those lessons carry over to a playground full of screaming, running kids too.

And, no, I didn't specify professional training as a condition of adoption.  Some rescues DO require that for certain breeds and strongly recommend it for ALL breeds.  I consider myself pretty dog savy and I still do avail myself of professional services simply because it's a great education for me AND whatever pup I have, not to mention a wonderful bonding experience.

mudpuppy

  No matter how much training they have there are still times I need to stop or correct some behavior.

what anne is trying to say is that this IS NOT TRUE. If you teach the dog WHAT TO DO from day one you'll never run into a situation where you have to stop/ correct behavior.

Not sure I agree with that.  Dogs are not perfect nor are they mind readers.  Plus, telling a dog to "leave it" when they are in the trash is stopping the behavior.  You may be stopping it with a command, but you are stopping it nonetheless.

Yes, but if you teach the leave it command early and catch them BEFORE they get into the trash then you are not stopping a behavior already in progress, but circumventing it from starting.

I don't see anywhere that Anne advocates not installing certain commands.  Quite the contrary, she's mentioned many times how important a good solid "leave it" is.  But, maybe I'm confused because there is a carry over from another thread I haven't read???

To me "Leave it" is just about the same as "Ah, ah"....in interruption/correction of an undesired behavior.Sounds different but you get the same result. I still don't see how one can train a dog to never receive any kind of interruption/correction for the rest of it's life.

snownose

To me "Leave it" is just about the same as "Ah, ah"....in interruption/correction of an undesired behavior.Sounds different but you get the same result. I still don't see how one can train a dog to never receive any kind of interruption/correction for the rest of it's life.

Have to agree.  Ben met a trotting horse for the first time a few weeks ago.  He's had some exposure to horses but no experiences with a horse + rider moving at that gait.  I had to correct him when he tried to run up behind the horse to sniff, which is after all what he'd do, quite naturally, to a dog.  The correction was nothing more than a "leave it, come here" and he responded, but it WAS a correction because it interrupted an undesirable behaviour that Ben had never had the opportunity before to exhibit - and therefore I had never taught him not to. 

DPU

For that other thread I think the best suggestion was when someone suggested the owner should gasp and ask the dog "what are you doing" and as I expected, it took 3 tries for both parties to connect and the bad behavior to stop.

Thanks,that was my sugestion.

While I understand frustration on the OP's part I agree that a good training class can be hard to find.We have to drive an hour each way and pay $120 for each six week block of 45 min classes.I give anyone credit who is even trying to train their  dog to behave as the vast majority of dogs I know are owned by people who barely do more than feed,water and get a rabies shot.

Tena