I don't understand why...

snownose

I still think that a leave it and ah, ah, are the same thing.......if you use a....leave it......do you reward each time?.

See, I think that with Sally I could reward each "leave it" with food and she'd be fine.  I think if I did that with Jack he would eventually realize that certain things resulted in me telling him to "leave it" which results in food.  He's a "do the math" type dog.

I do reward for big "eave its"--like leaving something *very* interesting promptly when asked to do so.... 

spiritdogs

 Well, apparently you all seem very anxious to batter me

Not me!  Just pointing out the irony that you tell us all dogs learn better when taught what TO DO, yet time and again I see many trainers/breeders/knowledgeable dog folk, apparently trying to educate fellow dog owners..... by telling them what not to do!

Sure sometimes you need to rant.... clearly that was the only purpose of the thread.  I was just having a mini rant too.... 

I am all for ranting. It is a useful thing to do. I don't think this board is the best place for that kind of rant, given the diverse posting population and the history of heated debate here.

As for people - people don't even understand PEOPLE! And we've been hanging out with each other for as long as people have existed.

Training a dog well is not intuitive. And very few people are going to do it well. That's ok. Not ideal, but ok. It is the dogs being abused and neglected that are the problem. If the average person has a much loved dog that they don't train just right, that isn't something I can get very upset about.

Spiritdogs, I have no desire to batter you. It sometimes seems, by your postings here, that your attitude towards people isn't as skillful as your attitude towards dogs. You may not mean to, but you stir up a lot of bad feelings. You don't have to apologize, agree, or even care. But if you sometimes wonder why you seem to get negative reactions to what you say ...

I agree with the above.  And, sometimes it seems things are implied in your posts too.  Like the "slap on a prong" comment.  I'm reading that as you are implying that those that do that don't care or don't love their dogs.  I know many people that use a prong and would never hurt their dogs and care very much about them.  As I said in my earlier post, sometimes you need to fix the problem quickly.  How many people have time to deal with misbehavior before work or when they have to be somewhere?  It's just not always practical to break out treats and clickers and whatever.

mudpuppy

CoBuHe:

snownose:

I still don't see how one can train a dog to never receive any kind of interruption/correction for the rest of it's life.

 

Was the the original point?  I didn't perceive it that way.  Of course, our dogs, continue to learn and we continue training for the life of the dog (which will include corrections).  I think the point was that should we decide to start training at an earlier age and should we have preconceived ideas about what we don't want our dogs to do generally; life for our dogs would be a little less stressful.

 

 

My post was directed at mudpuppy who basically laid that claim.

I have three adult dogs in my household who have never in their entire lives received a correction or positive punishment, verbal or otherwise.  What sort of behaviors do your adult, trained dogs end up needing corrections for?

I have the same situation, but I think I think we are spitting into the wind.  Lori said it best - owners want solutions NOW.  The problem is that there is often no NOW solution, there is only training.  And, training works, but too few people understand that there was a process that led to the poor behavior, and it's equally as true that there is a process to reversing it.  When I get a newly rescued dog, I start right away to train, not to punish.  Bob Bailey is correct that you get what you reinforce.  A reinforcer, is not always a cookie, nor is it always positive.  Some dogs are reinforced by attention, and their owners give it to them for such things as jumping up ("down", "off", "no" or shove the dog off physically) and then cannot understand why the dog keeps jumping.  And, when someone suggests that they adopt a new attitude of not giving the dog a whit of attention for that behavior, they don't follow through - they look at you and say that it didn't work.  But, the reality is that they tried it ONCE and, because the jumping didn't stop immediately and forever, they assume that method doesn't work.  That part does get frustrating for the trainer who knows that if a dog NEVER gets reinforced for a particular behavior, that's the best way to get it that behavior stop on a more permanent basis without destroying the dog's confidence in the owner as a benevolent leader. JMHO, but of course, that hasn't been worth a crap on this thread LOL.

How many people have time to deal with misbehavior before work or when they have to be somewhere?  It's just not always practical to break out treats and clickers and whatever.

why isn't it? a good clicker-session should less a couple minutes, no longer. Everyone has time for at least three clicker sessions a day. And the real problem is that it is VERY easy to PREVENT misbehaviors from occurring without putting in enormous amounts of time and energy; once the misbehavior has become habit it becomes much harder to fix. The problem is lack of knowledge before bringing puppy home.

I am just amazed what kind of robot like dogs you have and that none are ever stimulated enough to investigate......or, perhaps they have encountered it all and you never have to utter a word.

they're trained not robots. There are two parts to dog training: Manners, which are habitual behaviors you instill in your dogs to take care of most situations- pee here. Sit to greet people. Leave the leash slack no matter what. Ignore dogs and people you sight while out walking.
When walking off-leash keep mom in sight at all times. Don't eat things unless invited to do so including steak left on the counter, hot dogs accidently dropped on the floor, etc. Manners. the dog does them automatically without requiring cues. To take care of everything else you teach the dog cues to obey so if you encounter a situation not covered by Manners you can direct the dog. Dog goes to sniff something interesting; it turns out to be a poisonous snake; you have no Manners to cover leaving dangerous snakes alone, so you use a Cue to instruct dog- Come here. Down. Sit. Leave it. Heel. What do you think the purpose of obedience training is?  And no, once the training is done, you should definitely NOT be rewarding every single cue you give.

I'm not sure what "ah ah" means to your dogs. It sounds like it could be cue not a correction. Difference being cues are information/instructions/communications  and corrections are motivation-to-never-do-THAT-again.

mudpuppy

why isn't it? a good clicker-session should less a couple minutes, no longer

The point I was trying to make was that a lot of people do not take those couple of minutes to train when they are not in a hurry and then go to the easier methods (like the prong that was given as an example earlier) to get what they need done. 

I'm just speaking from what I've witnessed being a pet sitter and also having friends with dogs.  I personally had a much different experience as I got my dog when she was almost two and completely unsocialized.  However, I did do much of what you are describing with her and fortunately she caught on very quickly. And, chows are very nicely mannered in the house so that made it even easier.  I can drop something and Willow doesn't run to snatch it up, things like that.  But, at the same time there were certain things that I did not want to or have the time to put in to achieve. 

I don't know what type of lives some of you live but I do sense that some of you spend most of the day with your dogs be it because your job allows you too or maybe you don't work.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that but also please remember there are many people who cannot do that.

willowchow

I agree with the above.  And, sometimes it seems things are implied in your posts too.  Like the "slap on a prong" comment.  I'm reading that as you are implying that those that do that don't care or don't love their dogs. 

Well of course we don't!   Us prong users pride ourselves on being lazy pieces of crap!  When we are not hanging our dogs with prongs, we are poking at them with sticks.  Big ones.

mudpuppy

I'm not sure what "ah ah" means to your dogs. It sounds like it could be cue not a correction. Difference being cues are information/instructions/communications  and corrections are motivation-to-never-do-THAT-again.

It's either "Ah, Ah" or "Eh, Eh" same effect. In the beginning I use that and redirect and once the dog gets it that is all it takes. My dogs know when they hear that to stop or walk away from whatever it is.

Notice the dead silence from my corner.  Actually, I've been tremendously busy, but it's also hard to know what to say.  I am sure that there are sometimes when nothing when a correction will do.  Working training has shown me that you can't train for every situation that might come up, because I'm putting dogs into tons of new situations every day.  It's not really me, in fact, it's the livestock.

I do have to say, and I'll note this on the other thread.  You have to train a correction just like anything else.  That way the dog responds to the gentlest, most subtle correction possible.  A correction should just be information, not punishment or a fight.  "Ah" the dog says, "Not that."  Not, "OH MY GOSH MOM'S GONNA KILL ME!"

More later. 

brookcove

A correction should just be information, not punishment or a fight.  "Ah" the dog says, "Not that."  Not, "OH MY GOSH MOM'S GONNA KILL ME!"

That is how I see correction. With many (if not most) dogs, corrections never need to be more than "eh eh."

I think these threads sometimes give off a false impression of those who are defending correction as a technique. One, the are definition issues - ie mudpuppy has a different use of the word correction than some of us. Two, defending the idea that correction has a place does not mean a poster favors using heavy corrections or force. I don't.  

 The problem in my case in these discussions is that I'm aware that there are situations where the environment gives "corrections" - ie pressure or discouragement.  I don't want my dogs to automatically respond to all pressure by stopping in their tracks.  If you set it up so the dog only meets negative (ie, extinguishing) factors environmentally, that dog will get in the habit of "giving" immediately.

Let's take counter surfing for example.  I use that behavior as an opportunity to use a correction.  I make it hard to do the wrong thing - the food is put out of reach.  But I also make sure they will respond to a verbal correction.

It takes much longer to extinguish a behavior this way - mousetraps, noisemakers, those little electic shock mats - all these will get a faster result because of the Act of God effect.  But I don't want my dogs to think it was a random event - I do want them to know they can't do it because I said no.

Yes, this means that it takes a while for them to understand that no means no regardless of whether they think I'm watching.  But a few times of sneaking up on them will result in a stronger impression that I am Omniscient, which is more what I want when I'm working livestock.  If they think I can stop the fun whether I'm in sight or not, that's a good thing when I'm 800 yards from them.  They aren't scared of me - it's that they know I can interfere no matter where I am.

Okay, so that's where I'm coming from.   But for companion animals, I recommend training to be as positive as possible.  Yup, I definitely recommend the average pet owner rig noisemakers on countertops, use Gentle Leaders, "be a tree" (or my version), and clicker train like crazy.  You can control so much more when your dog isn't having to work independently of you.

But, I believe there are dogs that have to be closely managed or have their training taken to the next level, to get the same results you can get so easily with most breeds.  It's hard, hard work but it's worth it.  I'm having a blast with Lynn - part chow, part Aussie (I think), part Golden (maybe?) and half Leonberger.  What a combination!  And all puppy.  All the prey drive of the Aussie, the "you and whose army" attitude of the chow, the independent/thinking nature of the livestock guardian from the Leo side, and the bouncy, happy, devil-may-care brain of the Golden.  She's putting everything I've learned about training to work, and it changes every day.  I think she's going to be a splendid dog when she's mature, but it's a daily adventure.

brookcove

Let's take counter surfing for example.  I use that behavior as an opportunity to use a correction.  I make it hard to do the wrong thing - the food is put out of reach.  But I also make sure they will respond to a verbal correction.

I have yet to experience this with my residence dogs or any of all the fosters that have come to live in my house.  You guys are going to have to teach me how you get your dogs to counter surf because it is not a behavior that comes with the dog.

It takes much longer to extinguish a behavior this way - mousetraps, noisemakers, those little electic shock mats - all these will get a faster result because of the Act of God effect.  But I don't want my dogs to think it was a random event - I do want them to know they can't do it because I said no.

Yup, I definitely recommend the average pet owner rig noisemakers on countertops, use Gentle Leaders, "be a tree" (or my version), and clicker train like crazy.  You can control so much more when your dog isn't having to work independently of you.

The booby trap recommendation is very disappointing because it comes from a person who relies on good clean communications to get behavior.  Out of all the training technique, I despise this the most.  I picture the dog owner lurking in the dark, peeping around a corner, watching, and when the event happens-giggling.   Trickery, deception at its worst that no dog should be exposed to.   I am sure the dogs know the owner is behind it and there goes the trust.