herding breed barking at and nipping children

brookcove

but rather on changing this dog's relationship to her owners.  I'd want her to think they are so cool, and so trustworthy, that she doesn't need to worry about or make any decisions about things that move and excite her instincts, until her folks give the word.

brookcove

There are many, many things that can be done to accomplish this goal.  It is not true that a BC needs vast amounts of exercise to be happy, or formal agility or flyball or obedience training.  Instead, a BC needs to be part of a team, and to know that.

I think these statements are great.

  I wouldn't have used one in this instance, but I've seen very stern collar corrections used with great effectiveness, by pros, on dogs you would have thought would have melted away at the slightest pressure. 

Here's why.  As you know, once a dog with intense instincts like a BC (and she appears to be pure BC to me) is in "the zone", they feel nothing, just about.  It's how they are bred - once on, they are made to be practically unstoppable. 

a few weeks ago I watched in horror as a young BC severely injured herself breaking a chain and going through a wire fence in order to get to the sheep action. The owner had just chained her up "to watch and learn to wait". I don't think physical corrections that don't border on animal abuse will work for these "in intense drive" problems. I own a dog who is so prey-oriented that you could probably wallop him with a baseball bat and he wouldn't even notice while staring at a deer. Becca's "teach the dog impulse control beforehand" program makes much more sense.

I watched in horror as a young BC severely injured herself breaking a chain and going through a wire fence in order to get to the sheep action. The owner had just chained her up "to watch and learn to wait". I don't think physical corrections that don't border on animal abuse will work for these "in intense drive" problems.

Holy moley.  That's just irresponsible.  First, we tie up a dog to increase their instinct so, duh, tying one up that's already jacked up to that extent?  Not smart.  I think I've mentioned the dog I had here who broke a crate and a window to get to stock.  She doesn't work anywhere near sheep anymore. 

Dogs like that aren't good working dogs for obvious reasons.  As I said, um, somewhere - impulse control does require a genetic component.  Which brings me to my second point.  I have no idea about this dog, but many sport bred dogs (common among "hobby herders) have been bred without that crucial piece that allows them to learn impulse control.  They are all about self gratification without a sense of teamwork.  This is the danger of breeding a working breed, without reference to their original function.

I hope the dog is all right.

Corrections that I mention that are used to correct dogs "in the zone", are done effectively because they are timed correctly.  And an attractive alternative is simultaneously offered freely.  A dog nervous to approach a new handler is verbally corrected for turning away, but at the same time the handler takes two steps back (giving the dog more space) and keeps his body language welcoming and nonthreatening.  The message is clear - "Don't turn away and I'll make everything else easy as pie for you, sweetie!" 

The reason my psychologist friend was so interested in this method was how it affects the fear response.  It actually manipulates the learning process so that it's the fear response that is unpleasant, and the desired behavior (or thinking pattern, in the case of the PTSD victim) is very quickly assimilated as being very rewarding in itself.  At least, I think that's what she was saying.  Bleurgh, it's been a while.

I've allowed myself to be "worked" using this kind of communication and it was actually amazingly relaxing.  I wonder whether I could do it myself using the kids, sometime, and video it.  Hmm. 

However, for the vast majority of pet owners this is not the route one would go anyway.  I'd definitely recommend working with this dog until she's highly attuned to you.  I can put my money where my mouth is on this one.  I had a female who was so hypersensitive to children, other dogs, and strangers, that she'd start barking when they were fifty feet away, and turn into a swordfish on a fishing line, on the leash. 

It took a long while (about a year), but eventually she was able to do flyball and frisbee events, tolerate a dog even standing over her aggressively, and would work with any stranger who handled her.  I could work another dog doing anything from sheep to frisbee, with her in an honor down stay, indefinitely.  When I did flyball with her, I had to be very careful to time my recall AFTER she had the ball, or she'd turn in midair, inches from the box, to return - without the ball!  And she was so reactive about the ball that if she wasn't in a "wait" and you waved the ball at her, she'd take the ball AND your hand.

Children were always problematic and that was the reason I had to give her up eventually - but today I think I could have worked that out of her, too.  I hope things go well for you!

 I'd like to repeat that every negative, a positive must immediately follow. If the dog had to have a correction, whether that be physical or verbal, it was always then greeted with tons of praise and with calm, relaxed children that would give her butt scratches and belly rubs. And in the end of the session the dog was playing fetch with the kids, quite happily. It does not fear kids, it is just learning to control his natural instincts and impulses. We never want to break the spirit, but merely teach the dog what and what cannot be done according to our silly human rules. ;)

 As for whoever said it - the prong collar can be used as a self correcting tool(which happened in this case), just as well as it can be used as a correctional collar. In fact, I'd choose a prong over a choke any day.
 
I'm not an advocate of using physical corrections toward [fear] aggressive behaviors. If the case were that the dog was only barking and children because it feared them, there would have been a completely different route. However, the dog just hadn't learned the rules yet.. and now she knows. :)

I'd like to repeat that every negative, a positive must immediately follow. If the dog had to have a correction, whether that be physical or verbal, it was always then greeted with tons of praise

I don't get this. What was the dog being praised for? why must a positive immediately follow a negative especially if the dog hasn't done anything to earn a positive? must be very confusing to the dog- dog did behavior A and then suffered pain and then suddenly is being praised.

If the only two tools in the world were prongs and chokes, I'd pick the prong, too.  But, the fact is that prongs are not the best tool to use to eliminate this particular behavior.  You wanted instant results and you got them - this time.  But, if your FIRST response is always physical correction, rather than smart training and behavior modification, you will run across dogs that will not give you the same results and may cause you much grief.  Good luck with that.

mudpuppy

I'd like to repeat that every negative, a positive must immediately follow. If the dog had to have a correction, whether that be physical or verbal, it was always then greeted with tons of praise

I don't get this. What was the dog being praised for? why must a positive immediately follow a negative especially if the dog hasn't done anything to earn a positive? must be very confusing to the dog- dog did behavior A and then suffered pain and then suddenly is being praised.

The dog DID earn a positive! It immediately stopped its behavior and gave its attention to me! That is praise worthy! Lunging = bad, looking up at trainer = good.

 Not confusing at all. If a correction is issued, it is a done deal. No more reason to be angry, etc. Dogs forgive immediately. If a correction is ever given, it will be followed up immediately with reinforcement for the correct/desired behavior. To do otherwise is only going to teach a dog that learning is no fun.
 

 Please people, get over  your purely positive methods.
 

I am a motivation, rewards based dog trainer. I use food and toy rewards, and I use them quite often. I use luring and I love clicker training. I am absolutely against abusive and harsh dog training. But there is NO, nor will there ever be, such thing as a purely or 100% positive dog trainer.  

 Everything in moderation. There is a middle ground, and that is where the best trainers usually gather.
 

brookcove

I think I've mentioned the dog I had here who broke a crate and a window to get to stock.  She doesn't work anywhere near sheep anymore. 

Just yesterday I heard about a dog who was so ball obsessed when first adopted by his owners (who were unaware of this obsession) that when a ball was thrown for him to fetch, on a walk 2 days after they got him, the dog opted to SWALLOW the ball rather than give it up to the owners for it to be thrown again.  Obsession/fixation can be a very dangerous thing and must be dealt with appropriately....as must a dog who believes any given action is their "job" or responsibility, or even a dog who simply has an impulse and no control over it. 

 Oh, and Admin Note...please remember when responding that all points of view have validity even if you do not agree with them.  Thanks. 

 Jimminy Cricket!  Wouldn't that be a rude wakeup call?!  That's why OCD is one of the few things I will use the shock collar for, assuming I have come to it too late to treat it in the early stages.

On "every negative should be followed by a positive" - I'm not 100% sure what you are saying, but I don't agree with what I think you are saying.  If I correct, I make sure there is opportunity to be right and if possible, that it is as easy as can be arranged.  In other words, if the dog should go wide and to the left rather than tight and to the right, I'll correct the dog with an "Ah-ah" while I stand in the space where I don't want the dog to go - meanwhile completely opening up the place where I DO want him to go.  Likewise if I want a dog to go in the crate, I don't stand beside the crate and lean over it, I stand behind the dog.

Many times I don't really bother to do much praise when the dog finds the right choice.  If I've set it up right, the sense of having found the "Happy Place" is informative enough and anything else I say is just so much confusing blah, blah, blah.  This is especially true when working with a dog that's aroused and/or stressed.
 

brookcove

On "every negative should be followed by a positive" - I'm not 100% sure what you are saying, but I don't agree with what I think you are saying.  If I correct, I make sure there is opportunity to be right and if possible, that it is as easy as can be arranged.  In other words, if the dog should go wide and to the left rather than tight and to the right, I'll correct the dog with an "Ah-ah" while I stand in the space where I don't want the dog to go - meanwhile completely opening up the place where I DO want him to go. 

 Basically this saying comes about because all too often the "correctional based" trainer will correct and correct and correct.. where is the praise! Where is the rewards!? And if there is no rewards given, that dog's confidence usually slowly slips away.  If ever I have to correct a dog(which I'm sure most here would love to assume I have a prong on every dog and correct the heck out of them, which is not true - I rarely have to correct my dogs), when the bad behavior is ceased and I am able to regain the dog's attention, the dog is then immediately praised and rewarded. I set my dogs up to succeed, but if they react with behavior that I will just not tolerate sometimes a correction is warranted. But always immediately after that correction I will again manipulate it so taht they can succeed the next time and be heavily rewarded - which is exactly what I did in this case. I will not ignore a behavior taht we are working to fix - but you bet I will reward plenty, you bet I will never let that dog lose its confidence and spirit, and you bet that I forgive immediately. I may have corrected that dog but in no way was there ever a harsh tone, movement, or thought coming from my direction. The dog self corrected and stopped the behavior, I immediately praised and rewarded - AND got the kids to praise and pet the dog as well.

In short - the positive should immediately follow as to not kill the dog's spirit. You don't want to create a fearful dog.
 

when the bad behavior is ceased and I am able to regain the dog's attention

Here is a problem.  This, by the way, is my problem with CM, too.  The goal of my correction isn't to stop the behavior - that would make it, if I'm not mistaken, "punishment."   True punishment (or "positive punishment";) should be reserved for Really Bad Stuff, to increase its effectiveness.  I'm talking about chewing on a sheep or fighting another dog.

Instead, I just want the dog to get back into an attitude of listening.  I might see an ear flick back at me, or a brief pause in action, or the dog might lie down or take a slightly less forward positive - all of these things say, "Let's make a deal."

At that point I don't look for perfection - I ask and WHATEVER the dog gives, be it ever so little, is acceptable.  That's the beginning of a dialog, and the beginning of a trust you get between you.  That's how you avoid nervousness, undue stress or learned helplessness - by accepting a little as everything the dog can give at that moment without trauma.  This may mean the dog does something completely unlike what you were hoping, but the important thing is that the dog had the freedom to choose that, rather than being forced into something when their mind is on the fragile edge between trust and fear.

I remember my herding instructor working with my willful Border Collie.  "My way or the highway" was her theme in life.  He was correcting her for something on sheep, and at one point she simply ran to the fence and started looking for the way out.  I was mortified and went to get her.    

"Leave all that!" was his command to me.  He pointed to her roving up and down the fence, "She's thinking - I don't care what she needs to do to process what I'm asking her, she's giving me all she can right now."  The corrections, by the way, were no more than "Ah-ah!" and keeping her from doing what she wanted.  "I'll give her something easy to give me, and we'll go from there."  He called her and she came very eagerly, ears up and tail spinning happily and she got a few little pats and "That's ma gel."  Then he asked her to do the thing they'd been working on and this time it was perfect and she never had a problem again.

So different from CM, though superficially similar.  The difference was recognizing the little steps they have to take many times and offering the freedom to do it. 

The quintessential image for me, of CM, is walking the dog with his hand two inches up the leash. 

By contrast, I'll always remember a time Jack sent a dog 200 feet away, turned his back on him, told us, "He'll be wrong right - THERE" and turned and pointed to the spot 200 feet away - and the dog which was starting to go wrong - swerved into the right place.  Jack and that dog had such trust in each other that the mere hint that something was amiss was enough to get the dog to think of another answer.

 

brookcove

At that point I don't look for perfection - I ask and WHATEVER the dog gives, be it ever so little, is acceptable.  That's the beginning of a dialog, and the beginning of a trust you get between you. 

Shameless fan club, here.

I used this kind of technique with my daughter, when she was two and throwing fits from emotional overload. Any indication she could give me that she wanted to calm down or resolve the issue was responded to positively. One of our main ones was asking for 1 deep breath. Just one.  

 What is CM. The only thing I could even think of is Cesar Milan,but this discussion has nothing to do with him.

And while you surely sound as if you know what you are talking about, we are not talking about teaching a dog to herd. We are teaching a dog that lunging, barking, snapping at, and nipping children is innapropriate behavior. That kind of behavior is what I'd consider "Really Bad Stuff" and warranted a correction. I set the dog up to succeed, but I'm not going to ignore poor behavior. I will not break a dog's spirit, never. But I will not just allow a dog to bite and nip and lunge at children.