herding breed barking at and nipping children

 We will start out with name recognition and distraction training with the kids a good distance away. I will have the kids inch closer and closer in a calm, relaxed state, diverting their eyes and dropping a cookie, as we continue to work with name recognition and ignoring the kids when she is told to. Once she has a background in learning to pay attention to handler when told, we will heighten the distractions - the kids will be asked to again go a much further distance away, and this time do something with more activity, such as jumping jacks, or just running in small circles(no vocals at this point, just physical movement). I'm hoping for little to no reaction at this point, so that we can call the name, use a "spacial correction" if we must, and praise immensely for no herding/barking/lunging behavior. If there is a huge reaction, the dog will have already been placed on a prong collar incase of this kind of obnoxious reaction. If the dog hits the line, it will get a self correction, and directly after I will use a spacial correction. Get directly in front, back him up until he pays attention to me, and then give him his space back with praise and a cookie for paying attention to me while I continue to block his view. If you cannot praise, you cannot correct. So if ever a correction on the prong has to be issued, I will go back to a short name recognition game with high value rewards and again ask the kids to come in calmly to deliver cookies. She will learn kids are not the bad things that cause her to be disciplined, but her obnoxious behavior.

 
Definitely still open to more and new ideas and methods. I like to have many tools up my sleeve. I will also have a squirt bottle with me filled with water. And I do own a Head Halti.  

IMO, owning a herding breed (corgi) and knowing quite well BFs heeler, these dogs do not do well with any harsh form of correction, verbal or even self correction with the prong. They will shut down.

I think with a dog like this it's important to work on the on/off switch.  The dog should have some outlet for drive (doesn't necessarily have to be actual herding) and it should also be clear when the dog needs to be off/out/aus. 

I also think management is a good and safe idea.  My Kenya generally plays very well with other dogs, but sometimes if there are 3 or 4 or more dogs, she can get "herdy" and when that happens, usually I remove her.  I can call her off and down her at a distance, but it's still frustrating for the dog constantly getting called off and downed, even if their obedience and attention is very good.  This doesn't happen very often, it seems only certain playgroups of dogs insight the "herdy" reaction from her but when it does I usually move her out of site.  I don't want the dog being frustrated and constantly corrected, but I don't want her to keep doing the behavior and think it's OK.  Now she is playing with more and more dogs and maybe figured out that the herding is not appropriate and if she uses a different play style, she gets to stay in the pack.

I'm not too keen on using many physical corrections or putting the dog in front of what it wants to her and tethering it there, I wouldn't want to frustrate the dog and squash the dog's drives.  The drives just need to be put to work in a more appropriate situation. 

 Who ever said anything about a harsh correction? I do not plan to be harsh or violent one bit with this dog. I do not believe in being violent towards dogs. But I do believe in consequences, both good and bad. If the dog is so obnoxious to hit the end of the line, that is nothing caused by me - it is a simple self correction. At which time, I will happily and excitedly say, "What was that!?" as I continue to praise and deal out cookies for stopping her reaction when she got a self correction. And of course, I plan to take small steps to help to avoid such corrections, but when this behavior does happen, I don't believe in just ignoring it. It will be corrected, and good behavior will immediately be rewarded lavishly as we continue to work on commands such as "sit" "down" "watch me/name" with the kids in the background - tons of rewards, and corrections if needed and can't be avoided.

Every negative must ALWAYS be immediately followed by a positive. It is never their spirit you want to correct out of them, it is the bad behavior.

 The last time I met this dog at the shelter, she was scared and submissive dog. Very sweet too and well behaved. I do not plan to have to offer anything more than a verbal correction, paired with a spacial correction, unless of course she brings it upon herself and lunges at the end of the line.
 

Liesje

I think with a dog like this it's important to work on the on/off switch.  The dog should have some outlet for drive (doesn't necessarily have to be actual herding) and it should also be clear when the dog needs to be off/out/aus. 

I also think management is a good and safe idea.  My Kenya generally plays very well with other dogs, but sometimes if there are 3 or 4 or more dogs, she can get "herdy" and when that happens, usually I remove her.  I can call her off and down her at a distance, but it's still frustrating for the dog constantly getting called off and downed, even if their obedience and attention is very good.  This doesn't happen very often, it seems only certain playgroups of dogs insight the "herdy" reaction from her but when it does I usually move her out of site.  I don't want the dog being frustrated and constantly corrected, but I don't want her to keep doing the behavior and think it's OK.  Now she is playing with more and more dogs and maybe figured out that the herding is not appropriate and if she uses a different play style, she gets to stay in the pack.

I'm not too keen on using many physical corrections or putting the dog in front of what it wants to her and tethering it there, I wouldn't want to frustrate the dog and squash the dog's drives.  The drives just need to be put to work in a more appropriate situation. 

What could be the outlet for a dog that is merely a pet, nothing more?

 The dog will not just be forced into a stressful and stimulating position where the kids are jumping and screaming and the dog is just being corrected over and over. Of course not, that is not how I explained what my original plans were. We are going to work to desensitize the dog through name recognition/leave it commands, obedience and ignoring the kids at a far distance as they slowly inch closer and closer. If the dog reacts badly, the behavior will not be ignored, but I have no intention of ruining the dog's spirit. After the correction, we will have to take steps back to make sure the dog still understands kids mean good things (kids will give me cookies!), and again work at a distance to regain control and attention as they get closer and closer. Reward for good, correction for bad.
 

 The lesson went GREAT!!

Well, the kids were about 15-20 min late. A misunderstanding in what time the lesson was at between all three of us(the BC owner, me, and the student of mine that brought her kids). But that gave me and the owners more time to talk more about the issues, about how much exercise the dog got, about what else they tried adn exactly what they did... etc. "Della" does get plenty of exercise physically. Running and walking every day. And playing too. Not maybe as much mental though - but she's actually a very calm, sweet, relaxed, and not very spastic.

The dog did not take treats. So from the getgo we were using praise alone.

Before the kids arrived, we worked on name recognition. At first I had the kids visit with the dog, asking them to be very calm and praising and attentive. Gave "Della" the chance to meet the kids and learn they were good ones. She is a very submissive dog. At first I wanted her to become more relaxed around the kids before we started working.

Then I told the kids to go way out and just run in circles. Thats when I started to see Della whine, bark once, and lunge a bit all at the same time. I had her on a pretty short leash, and on the prong collar. She hit the prong, and then settled into a sit and looked up at me. I praised her IMMENSELY for giving me her attention, as if she was the most perfect dog in the world - because at that moment she was. She learned her lesson and then gave me her attention. GOOD dog! She whined a second time when I told the kids to up the anty and make some noise along with their movement. The moment she did so I stepped directly in front and invaded her space saying "Ah Ah!!". She stopped, looked at me, and tons and tons of praise. I switched off from the prong and onto her harness. From then on all she needed was a verbal correction(and very very few) as I asked the kids to come closer and closer as they continued to play, run, and yell. She was very attentive towards their movement, but stayed still and did not bark, whine or lunge. When I said her name, she'd give me her attention, though it would be more of a glance - but it was attention none the less. She had learned. So I started walking her through their movements and excitement - she in movement rather than just sitting there. This was a bit more difficult for her, but she passed with flying colors. Frequently throughout the entire session I had the kids come up to her calmly to give her attention, praise, and petting. And at the very end took out the tennis ball. The kids played with her and threw the ball back and forth between themselves as they again acted as distractions, yelling and running about. Rewarding her with teh tennis ball from time to time. The lesson DID put some stress onto Della - she was experiencing some new rules she'd never known before - but it is to never break her spirit - and at the end of hte session she had learned kids CAN be good things, not to be scared of just because got some negative reaction from human because of her behavior. Her ears were up, her tail was relaxed, she was playful and happy. She had learned the boundaries(at least in this particular session) and had accepted them.

Next step? We're taking her to a baseball game! No more little league games for the season, but we figure the bigger people games would be better to start off with anyway.

I'm happy with how it all went. The owners are happy. The kids enjoyed htemselves and got a treat out of it! It was just a great time. The owners were a joy to work with.

My friends old Aussie used to do the same thing. They trained him to hold a toy in his mouth around kids - gave the dog a job, plus stopped the barking and nipping - can't do that with something in your mouth, can ya?

 was able to find a picture of the dog that I worked with (these were her rescue/petfinder pictures)

Oh my word what a beatiful dog

I'm glad the lesson went well for you.  What is the dog's name? 

Just would like to add a couple of thoughts - firstly if she is normally food orientated I would think that the fact she wouldn't take treats is an indicator she may have started off a bit too close?  Just a little more distance might have helped her a lot.  Secondly, I would repeat this but proof her on a longer line first before going to the next level... I would want to make sure she was OK on a normal flat collar and a reasonably long line, but that's just me!

Chuffy

Oh my word what a beatiful dog

I'm glad the lesson went well for you.  What is the dog's name? 

Just would like to add a couple of thoughts - firstly if she is normally food orientated I would think that the fact she wouldn't take treats is an indicator she may have started off a bit too close?  Just a little more distance might have helped her a lot.  Secondly, I would repeat this but proof her on a longer line first before going to the next level... I would want to make sure she was OK on a normal flat collar and a reasonably long line, but that's just me!

 Her name is now Della.

 
No, this dog is not normally food motivated at all. The owner said sometimes she'll take an animal cracker, but even that isn't a sure thing. She just isn't a dog that is nuts over treats. If the dog would have normally been motivated by treats but would not take them, I'd know that I'd need to get the dog back into a more relaxed state of mind before even attempting working with it. But that wasn't the case. Any time Della did start to get too overwhelmed, we gave her a little break and brought the kids back in close to pet her and praise her. For every negative, a positive must immediately follow.

The dog was only on the prong for a very short while(two corrections). She was then switched right back onto her harness. We have already done the long line work in the first session.
 

My brother-in-law has a Blue Merle Australian Shepherd that lives to cut and herd, even if it's just a ball. She loves that more than treats, which she will also take. But the work ethic of a cattle dog is strong in her. Our nephew, very young, was not aware of the strong work ethic and was about to run her ragged until we could get him onto another interest, at least until the crawfish boil was ready (BIL and family live about 30 minutes from Baton Rouge, LA.)

Some dogs are such strong working dogs that it is hard for them to dial down to accept humans but I am glad you have made progress. I wish Becca (Brookscove) would chime in. She trains cattle or stock dogs all the time. And, of course, you have already received excellent advice from Spiritdogs. I imagine your solution, as it appears, will be a combination of management and training and that your friends are going to have to accept that it will take quite a bit of work and some management. I don't think there's a magical cure or word, just new associative conditioning that noisy, boisterous kids are nothing for her to be concerned about, if it all possible.

ron2

 Our nephew, very young, was not aware of the strong work ethic and was about to run her ragged until we could get him onto another interest, at least until the crawfish boil was ready (BIL and family live about 30 minutes from Baton Rouge, LA.)

 Ummmm Mudbugs !!   I just picked up 50 pounds of X Jumbo Reds shrimps for the Southern Boil we are throwing for H&G at the Rodgeback Rodeo in Pennsylvania next week .   Bob got off work an hour early and we are finally on the road, The Raptors, Nemo and Kota with our Beloved Jasmine of Course. Looks like we are driving into some weather already Bob wants to get farther up the road Than I wanted us to go tonight since we have a little side trip to make but it's all good we will be in Connieautville by Tuesday , I took Pictures of Nemo and the grand daughters at the Shrimpers...  He was amazed by all the critters in the water. Thought I would blow them up to at least 8x10s for folks who don't wander around these boats on a regular basis...  I am 5 miles as the Water Moccasin wanders from the Gulf entry for Billy's Seafood ...

Looks like we will be driving into weather ... gee great   Bonita of Bwana

Yes, the proper way to eat mudbugs (fresh water crustaceans, which is what crawfish are) is on a large picnic table. For those that don't know, you need at least a 20 qt stock pot or bigger on a burner stand OUTSIDE the house. Water, seasoning, 10 to 20 lbs of crawfish, which are still alive. Cajun style is to also have small or new potatos, whole mushrooms and half ears of corn to thrown in, as well. Also, crawfish left over from the last boil are frozen and when you do the current one, you thaw out the leftovers from last time and make Crawfish Etoufee'. And catfish fillets battered in milk and mustard and corn meal and some cajun seasoning.

Anyway, on the picnic table, you have the cooked mud bugs. The other end is the "bone" pile. You crack the crawfish in half. Peel the legs off and you can pull the meat out of the tail. And then, you slurp on the head where the spices collect. That's why eating crawfish is sometimes called sucking heads. Your hands and face will become a mess. Live with it. You can always hose down later. Tha's some good eatin, I done tole you one time, mon Ami. Tres bon!

Stepping back in here to say that if you use a prong collar on a reactive (or fearful, or aggressive) dog, that, IMHO, is the wrong response.  These dogs may be drivey, and they may be herdy, but they are also incredibly sensitive and smart.  Prongs, however lightly used, are not for correcting a dog anyway, they are simply a device that is used to avoid a dog pulling.  Dog pulls, collar tightens and dog feels pain.  Dog relaxes, pain goes away.  Frankly, I don't use prongs at all.  But, especially when you are dealing with dogs that sometimes learn in "one trial", you do not want them to learn that the presence of children predicts pain.   Just wouldn't want anyone else to have the same issue, handle it the same way, and not have the result that you got.  You were lucky this time.

So I'm away traveling for a week and this topic comes up?  Now that wasn't nice!  I hate being a latecomer.  lol

First, to Anne.  A correction, even what we'd think of as being a harsh and possibly painful one, can work without the results you fear.  I wouldn't have used one in this instance, but I've seen very stern collar corrections used with great effectiveness, by pros, on dogs you would have thought would have melted away at the slightest pressure. 

Here's why.  As you know, once a dog with intense instincts like a BC (and she appears to be pure BC to me) is in "the zone", they feel nothing, just about.  It's how they are bred - once on, they are made to be practically unstoppable.  Only two things can get them out.  One, enough pressure to make them go, "What?"  Depending on the dog and the level of arousal, it might require anything from body language, to verbal corrections, to even physical corrections as we'd do if there was the potential for harm to livestock, dog, or humans.  A friend who is a research psychologist drew a parallel between this process and an experimental therapy they are trying at Duke for PTSD victims, combining shock therapy with talk therapy.  It works by speeding the process of behavior modification, by accessing a different part of the brain than the usual learning centers - the part where primal instincts operate.

The other thing that can lower arousal is the dog's own ability to self correct, because of a learned behavior.  As you probably know, we try to transition a stockdog from the above situation to the second, as quickly as possible, because it's impossible to manage a dog's behavior at 700 to 1500 yards away.  Heck, you're lucky if you can see the dog!

So that is the second point.  It is definitely possible to create impulse control in a dog, even one with intense instincts - assuming that dog has the genetic potential for impulse control.  I've worked with dogs bred for agility or flyball where it's all go and no stop, that were missing this piece and they are truly the disaster waiting to happen that you describe.  By the way, the link you reference was written by someone who didn't know BCs well and there are some incorrect statements in it.  The USBCC has a lot of good material that is more correct on living with a Border Collie with all the pieces in the right place.

So how does one accomplish this goal without livestock, and without cruelty?  The secret is that I instill the majority of my impulse control training before ever showing the dog a sheep.  The first time a dog in full time training (as opposed to simply being evaluated for interest and potential) enters the ring, I want to be able to speak that dog's name and have him go, "Oh, what?" even if he's diving for a mouthful of wool!

I've described my long line work before - during that I am gradually training the dog to consider me the most interesting thing in the world.  That's what I would suggest to this person.  Training should not primarily focus on being around children, but rather on changing this dog's relationship to her owners.  I'd want her to think they are so cool, and so trustworthy, that she doesn't need to worry about or make any decisions about things that move and excite her instincts, until her folks give the word.

There are many, many things that can be done to accomplish this goal.  It is not true that a BC needs vast amounts of exercise to be happy, or formal agility or flyball or obedience training.  Instead, a BC needs to be part of a team, and to know that.

I highly recommend Patricia McConnell's approach particularly for improving a relationship with a Border collie in the home.  She has them herself and has experienced both sides of the equation as I have - both having them as pets and also as partners in working the farm.