herding breed barking at and nipping children

 Umm... that's HERDING! It's misdirected, wildly uncontrolled herding, but it's herding.

I don't think you are going about it wrong at all.  I agree, the behavior should NOT be tolerated and you are rewarding the dog for not doing it so I don't see anything wrong with the way you are going about it in general.  I guess the only thing I'd add if it were me (and maybe you are already doing this) is that I like to use a 4:1 rule where I want to find myself rewarding and praising the dog at least four times as much as I am correcting the dog (meaning ALL corrections, not just physical ones, but anytime I have to point at the dog, give a "daggers" look to the dog, or say "eh eh" I consider that one correction).  I would really set the dog up for success, not just after a correcting is given and the dog is subsequently rewarded, but set the dog up to succeed from the get-go.  If the dog IS still barking and nipping, the distance is too close, or the kids are moving to fast for that stage of training.  Even if it means tethering the dog 50 feet and having one child skip past, dog does nothing and gets rewarded and that's it for that day.  Not giving the dog the chance to get worked up beyond an interested stare so the sessions are very short and always end with the dog being right.  If the dog has a lot of prey drive, maybe reward the session with appropriate games like ball or tug so the dog can release that prey/herding energy right away AND get praised for releasing it on a toy instead of a child.

jennie_c_d

 Umm... that's HERDING! It's misdirected, wildly uncontrolled herding, but it's herding.

Truer words were never spoken.  You won't get the dog to stop being herdy - that's genetic.  What you need to do is direct that behavior to acceptable activity - herding the tennis ball, the frisbee, the sheep, but not the kids.   And, it's better to teach cues that stop the dog and get him to respond to your cues in non-distracting circumstances first, then proof for more distraction, duration, etc.  It's not so wonderful to just put him with kids and punish the heck out of him for doing what comes naturally, when you have not installed a cue that tells him not to herd at that moment.  When Sequoyah was ten weeks old, she attempted to chase a little girl on a skateboard - well, I guess I had a herdygirl, eh?  But, I didn't give her any further opportunity to see skateboarding little girls until I taught her "leave it" "come".  As soon as she had those things down pat, I upped the distraction level to things like brooms & 2-liter bottles.  Little by little the ante went up, and now she will not herd humans.  In fact, a couple of days ago, a baby bird got stuck in my screen porch and I accidentally let all three dogs out there before I knew the fledgling was there.  Two of them (you guessed, the Aussies) dived in for the kill, but broke off with one "leave it" from me.  This behavior can be taught without the use of punishment, for those who prefer not to use it.
 

Liesje

I don't think you are going about it wrong at all.  I agree, the behavior should NOT be tolerated and you are rewarding the dog for not doing it so I don't see anything wrong with the way you are going about it in general.  I guess the only thing I'd add if it were me (and maybe you are already doing this) is that I like to use a 4:1 rule where I want to find myself rewarding and praising the dog at least four times as much as I am correcting the dog (meaning ALL corrections, not just physical ones, but anytime I have to point at the dog, give a "daggers" look to the dog, or say "eh eh" I consider that one correction).  I would really set the dog up for success, not just after a correcting is given and the dog is subsequently rewarded, but set the dog up to succeed from the get-go.  If the dog IS still barking and nipping, the distance is too close, or the kids are moving to fast for that stage of training.  Even if it means tethering the dog 50 feet and having one child skip past, dog does nothing and gets rewarded and that's it for that day.  Not giving the dog the chance to get worked up beyond an interested stare so the sessions are very short and always end with the dog being right.  If the dog has a lot of prey drive, maybe reward the session with appropriate games like ball or tug so the dog can release that prey/herding energy right away AND get praised for releasing it on a toy instead of a child.

Yes, I was already doing this. If I have to correct, there will be positive that follows. And I will follow up with setting the dog up to succeed just as I did from the very beginning. I had the kids a very very long distance away. Started out rewarding for not paying attention to the kids, but eventually I did have to ask the kids to up the anty.. and when I did, that's when I got a reaction I could not ignore. And immediately after the dog self corrected, I got a behavior I did want. So praise and try againsetting dog up to succeed - and she had learned. Which is why I was able to give so few corrections. But people on here hear of a correction and they automatically assume the dog is being corrected to death, in reality there were only very few corrections issued at all, and most all were merely verbal. And by the sounds of it you'd think the dog won a national dog competition with how pleased and how much I praised when she did do something right. I am by no means a harsh trainer.  

But I will not just allow a dog to bite and nip and lunge at children.

Of course not.  That's why this kind of training is done on a leash, to reduce the options to choices that will not potentially harm the children.

Here's the problem.  Border Collies are clever little things, and while you may have spoiled the fun under these circumstances, she's thinking about how to reclaim those good feelings again.  Punishment (P+) teaches avoidance - not of the behavior, usually, but of the punishment.  It only causes extinction if it's really traumatic, or repeated a sufficient number of times.  For instance, the dog rapped in the nose for biting sheep, unless shaped to put biting in a correct context and also worked through whatever caused the bite - that dog will simply learn to bite in ways that make it difficult for the stick holder to get him.  Biting on the opposite side of the sheep, running under the belly and biting, etc.

My goal would not be to "not pay attention to the kids" but to have the ability to watch them without the desire to act on the instincts that are raging inside.  This ability can be easily generalized.  Now the dog has learned its okay and even desirable to do that, and she will think about things whizzing by (ie cars, bikes, animals) and see whether "the boss" wants anything done about it, rather than blindly reacting to them.

The reward, of course, is that she'd enjoy lots of chase games in a correct context.  But with a dog like this, in the beginning, I'd do a whole lot of training so that she could hold a stay while the ball or Frisbee was thrown, or while another dog worked, or while people tossed a ball back and forth.

If she had truly learned her lesson, she'd be able to stand off-leash, and watch kids throw a ball back and forth, and not act on her excitement. 

I am a motivation, rewards based dog trainer. I use food and toy rewards, and I use them quite often. I use luring and I love clicker training. I am absolutely against abusive and harsh dog training. But there is NO, nor will there ever be, such thing as a purely or 100% positive dog trainer.  

yeah, but what is bothering everyone is the OP apparently skipped all the preliminary steps and just went straight to yanking the dog hard with a prong collar. The dog was not first carefully  taught "what to do in the presence of running children" and then when that failed a correction was applied- the dog was just very unfairly corrected from the get-go. Dog was set up to fail, and was punished rather severely. Even many rather heavy-handed trainers would have problems with this scenario. I'm also somewhat concerned as to how exactly the OP intends to transition the dog to off-leash, an ever-present difficulty with people who rely on leash-corrections as their primary training tool. Dogs taught with leash-corrections don't learn self-control and many rapidly realize they only have to obey if on leash.

Tootsie (definitely a herding breed) has been taught "leave it" when she tries to do something that is inappropriate (like trying to herd children). She was taught this at a young age and was never allowed in situations where she would fail, ie. baseball game. She has never worn a prong, never needed. She lives to please me, always looks at me first before she does anything, kinda like asking my permission. 

 I'm sorry, I hit reply to "tiffy" instead of mudpuppy.  LOL

Even many rather heavy-handed trainers would have problems with this scenario.

As someone who has known a number of trainers that range from "heavy handed" to downright scary, this is absolutely true.  It's like the time I took my youngster to a trainer who first off, went in a teeny pen with sheep that were running, terrified, freaked out, and after putting Rick on a "belly rope" (I refuse to describe this exactly as I consider it cruel and dangerous, suffice it to say it puts violent pressure behind the area protected by the ribs) stirred up the sheep and then jerked Rick over and over until he laid down in terror.  Then he stirred up the sheep and jerked Rick again and again until Rick laid down in terror and pain.  Finally, Rick suddenly realized that if he got to a sheep fast enough and just HUNG ON FOR DEAR LIFE, the trainer couldn't jerk against the sheep and Rick too, and he would have to drop the rope and come running to assist the sheep.

Well, that was enough of that.  It had lasted all of thirty seconds (during which I was too astonished to say anything).  But, it was a terrible lesson.  From then on, my dog, when scared, nervous, or uncertain what to do would default to grabbing a sheep and hanging on for dear life.  Great.  It was a really difficult thing to manage and finally meant I had to sell him to someone Rick trusted way more than me (the person who took him too That Rope Guy).

Anyway, everyone, even very "heavy handed" trainers, considered this fellow to be incompetent and all his dogs had the same problem - they grabbed sheep and hung on.   You never know what you are creating when you go straight to the dynamite in the tool locker (ie, punishment).

brookcove

If she had truly learned her lesson, she'd be able to stand off-leash, and watch kids throw a ball back and forth, and not act on her excitement. 

Then I suppose she truly did learn her lesson. :) At the end of our session, she was offlead with kids and a ball, all going in all sorts of direction without any herding, nipping, snapping, or lunging.

You people just don't listen do you. *laughs* I've stated many times that I started out training and conditioning the dog. The kids did were not even involved in the first 30 min of training.  

And my advice is that you not assume I am so ignorant on training. I know about the learning theory, extinction and punishment. I just will not so falsely and ignorantly fall into the purely positive mindset.  

But this is where I will be stepping out, because.. well, people will be people. and people will be absurd and ridiculous. If you would truly like to believe and suggest that my training is so harsh and abusive, then I would hate to see what your reaction when you meet someone truly harsh and abusive in their training. Because I am the exact opposite than harsh in my training. Harshness and violence have no place in dog training. I am never harsh, but I will be firm.

Yours Truly,
The Rainbow Fairy ;)
 

  You never know what you are creating when you go straight to the dynamite in the tool locker (ie, punishment).

to the OP: YOU WERE LUCKY. Your technique may have worked this time with this dog but most dogs it would have been a disaster. Don't pat yourself on the back and promote this method. There are "dangerous" training methods that work sometimes and often backfire horribly and there are "safe" methods that work most of the time and rarely if ever backfire. Unfortunately people aren't willing to learn about or put in the time to use the "safe" methods and revert to "possible quick fix" without considering what sort of fallout may occur when it backfires.

30 minutes just doesn't sound like a lot of time. Given, I am a novice trainer. I'm working on my novice a dog, right now, getting my first set of titles. I'm assisting with basic obedience and rally classes. I'm learning....

It took me a year to get my dog from violently reactive to reliably controlling herself and allowing contact from strange dogs and humans. Even after that year's worth of consistant confidence and control building, she has her days... She might still snap at a dog, occasionally. She will walk away from a human, before she'll growl or show any sort of bad behavior.  In my (ridiculously limited) experience, it takes a lot of consistency to make a behavior reliable.  

I meant, she could do a "stay" in the presence of the kids throwing the ball.  Redirecting the energy is fine but when all is said and done she still has to learn to control her impulses, not act on them - either in a "safe" way or an unsafe way.  MANY Border Collies who have issues will seem fine in the presence of the object of their affections.  It's one reason temperamental issues slip by many sports breeders, who feel their dogs are fine because they are capable of agility, flyball, frisbee and never act on their fears or aggressions. 

No one's gotten hostile here.  I am concerned that there are people lurking who might see your boast that you've "cured" this dog in one fell swoop, with no sound theory behind it.  You cannot show the evidence of this.  Therefore all we can do is discuss theory.  My perspective is one of over 15 years of rescue, half of that in intense training of "problem" dogs, mostly aggressive, and almost all Border Collies.  I've trained with some of the best names in the country, specifically with Border Collies, and adopted out and sold trained dogs all over the continent.  Et tu?

Thus, I felt what you may have perceived about what happened with this dog, may not square with the reality that I know about these dogs. Again, my concern is for people reading who might try the same thing as if it were "plug and play" - insert punishment, out pops a perfectly behaved dog.  Your whole emphasis in relating your story was on the punishment training part of it - particularly in your subsequent discussion of it, in repeating things like "every negative is followed by a positive" (which is incorrect termininolgy for this kind of discussion - "negative" refers to something being removed, like if I walked this dog away from the fun when she started getting a bit excited, or if you stop jerking to "reward" good behavior, which actually happened, though this kind of reinforcement is difficult to do properly as it is so dependent on timing - many police dog trainers use it, though).   This made it seem as if you were baiting the positive reinforcement folks a bit.  I'm hardly that but I still felt your approach as you described it (remember, that's all we have to go on!) was flawed.

Let me put it this way.  I train dogs that could potentially go on to work around busy roads, on golf courses where a wrong step could mean a few hundred dollars worth of damage, and airports where obedience equals public safety.  To teach self control to dogs that are worse than what you describe this dog is (they have no connection to people at all, no desire to play ball, they'd let a treat fall right out of their mouths), I start slow, go in little steps, don't expect huge things all at once, teach the dog to learn, then what I expect, then how to offer behavior confidently, knowing I'll let them know gently, but clearly, "green light" or "red light."  They learn to run full out, and enjoy life, but always with an ear back to me (or whoever). 

 Again, you all are being absolutely absurd and ridiculous.

You think I'm abusive? HA! I grew up in a training club that truly abused dogs. I saw it in every class. I saw dogs being unfairly punished, never praised and rewarded. I saw the training backfire - I saw that punishment does NOT work in many cases. Don't speak to be about punishment, how overused it is, how often it is the quick fix, and how often it back fires. I know this already. You all act is if I'm some incompetent fool, which in fact I've seen the reality of it for nearly 10 years on a weekly (2-4 times weekly) basis. 

If you accuse me of being ignorant and abusive, you are ignorant of what is truly out there in dog training.  As well as ignorant to my own methods - people hear the word "correction" and they automatically assume abuse. Taht is wrong with all these purely positive dog trainers. They are just as bad as those people that hate clicker training and think training with treats should never be done. NO extremist is a good thing - even in dog training. The best trainers meet in the middle. I will not rule out any part of the learning theory, including positive punishment. However, I will use it carefully and wisely. I will use it fairly and humanely. And that is exactly what I did.

My favorite authors include Jean Donaldson, Karen Pryor, Dr Ian Dunbar, Pat Miller, Suzzane Clothier, and Patricia McConnell. I am a reward based and motivational dog trainer. I love my clicker as do my dogs. My dogs do not fear me, nor would they ever have a reason to. My dogs don't work out of fear, but out of WANT - they want to be with me and do as I say. I hardly ever have to correct my dogs because of the methods I choose to use. 

You all may suggest and assume I'm some horrible abusive dog trainer all you'd like. My clients, students, friends, and even others on forums that are smart enough to actually understand know that I am far from that.  

"your boast that you've "cured" this dog in one fell swoop"

 Do not put words in my mouth and stop assuming. If you would go back and read, you'd see that there will be future lessons. Is the dog cured? NO. It doesn't happen or work that way. The dog will need more work. It will need more attention training. We will have future lessons, slowly building up the criteria and distractions. But of course, you all love to assume. How fun that must be for you. When in reality I clearly stated that there would be future lessons and we'd continue to work on it. Has the dog improved? You bet! Does the dog still need work? You bet!
 

And jennie, the difference you have not understood is that this dog was not fearful, it was not aggressive. If it were, I'd be in the same situation you are - working to cure it and desensitize the dog to its fears little by little. But that just was not the case.

spiritdogs

Stepping back in here to say that if you use a prong collar on a reactive (or fearful, or aggressive) dog, that, IMHO, is the wrong response.  you do not want them to learn that the presence of children predicts pain.  You were lucky this time.

This dog was not fearful or aggressive.  It was not luck, it was careful and educated dog training.  Again, you are paying no mind to how careful I was with the corrections, nor how much reward and praise was used. The dog never got the impression that kids were bad because I would not let it. If the dog had to be corrected(and most all of the in total of 6 corrections in the entire session were verbal) the children were brought back in to reward, praise, belly rub, etc. The dog did not start out fearful or aggressive to kids, nor did it leave that way. Could it have backfired under a poor, harsh, and ignorant trainer? YOU BET! But that is not the case here.

Moderator speaking...

General notice,

The tone on this thread needs to come down a few pegs. Remember YOU are resposible for what YOU post. If you cross the line you risk being edited...period.

Keep it civil. There is no need for overly emotional inflammatory responses or lack or respect in tone.