Human aggression....

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

What info did I give that was vague and googled??? Why is it that you think you're experience is so much better than mine again???

Why do you put your judgement on me?  I never compared experiences and I have been very straight here in sharing my experiences, practices, and ideas (some very good, some not so good).  I don't know you, I don't know your experiences, but in a few cases, your lack of providing specifics that would have help a dog, this member, a family, and I am sure other members...did not come, you went silent.  E.g. a dog being poisoned by drinking excess water.

I asked leslie_chessies to put it up for me (since I am in the process of moving and was busy at that time) which she did.

 

Also, Snownose pointed out a pretty big discrepency in what you said and that has not been explained yet.

Which was what?

 

So with respect to SRS dogs (and it was very clear you did not know what SRS was),

Around here we call it plain old Rage, Rage Syndrome, or Idiopathic Aggression. I had never seen it referred to as SRS, and to be frank you abbreviate many things differently than I do (not wrong, just different) so, no I did not know what you were referring to, but I am certainly familiar with the illness.

 

the lack of detail personal experience makes me wonder at this time.....but maybe the future will be different.

I believe I have already amended this particular issue you seem to have.

The dog in my above example bites the handler. There is no extremely exciting event - the dog simply wants to keep going and is frustrated at not being able to. I know the term displaced aggression. What if the hypothetical dog were biting the handler because it knew the handler's lack of movement was what was restricting the movement? We can't get inside a dog's head, but presume for a moment the dog but two and two together.

(I'm asking these questions to try and understand people's thinking, not to prove anything.These are examples drawn from more than one dog, and sometimes tweaked a bit)

What about a dog who sneaks up behind a visitor, silently, and bites?  

What about a dog who doesn't allow other people to touch its owner, and will bite people to prevent them from doing so. Is this dog aggressive towards humans or not?  

Dog_ma

The dog in my above example bites the handler. There is no extremely exciting event - the dog simply wants to keep going and is frustrated at not being able to. I know the term displaced aggression. What if the hypothetical dog were biting the handler because it knew the handler's lack of movement was what was restricting the movement? We can't get inside a dog's head, but presume for a moment the dog but two and two together.

Still most likely Displacement Aggression, frustrated at the lead holding it back and bites handler. It could be dominance aggression, but I would need more info.

What about a dog who sneaks up behind a visitor, silently, and bites?

This could be territorial, dominance, or fear depending upon the circumstances.  

What about a dog who doesn't allow other people to touch its owner, and will bite people to prevent them from doing so. Is this dog aggressive towards humans or not?

Most likely territorial or dominance aggression, although it could be fear. If it bites it's aggressive, that much should be apparent, but is it fixable?? Sounds like a resounding yes, but without lots more info, see below, I couldn't begin to be sure.

Any one of these could also be due to a medical condition, or something completely different than what I've said. I always spent at least 2 hours with owners discussing behavior, previous training, etc. I did the same with shelter dogs, except discussed them with the shelter staff that worked with them and then spent at least 1 hour just observing before I ever even approached the dog. You can learn books of info by things that are said and not said with an owner and the same from simple observation. I never jump right in.

I think the "dog" is human aggressive in all the situations that were described-just for different reasons with varying degrees of the possibility of "fixing" it. 

Also, I wanted to mention that other displays besides biting like growling at people, lunging or raising fur, showing teeth are aggressive.  So, I don't think a dog has to actually bite to be human aggressive.  My dog has never bit a human but given the chance in certain situations she would.

The above is a very, very good point. Those are indeed signs of aggression - but at least, in those cases, the dog is still showing "warning signs" before anything truly happens. There's still a mental "check" in the dog's mind that it manages to retain before attempting outward damage. I think the worst problem, and a possibly unsolvable problem if it is not a medical condition, is the dog that attacks without any warning beforehand.

snownose

Excuse me, I am a little confused here....in the Anticipation and Excitement thread you posted the following:

<<<<<>>>>>>

Then this:

<<<<>>>>>>

 

All folks who had to deal with some form of aggression be it fear, resource guarding or other, and and have kept or adopted out a dog with that type of affliction makes us all rehabbers of some sort.....I have had to deal with resource guarding and extremely fearful dogs that would dish out a bite if not handled correctly, and so have many other folks.......Lori/Willowchow is a good example,also.....

My apologies, I have misunderstood you from post one....looks like we are all in the same boat then......people rescuing dogs and doing the best we can.........it seems we can not figure out what true HA really is......   

LOL, I can see people sort of getting a bit heady over "saving" dogs.  My dog never let me get that way.  As soon as I thought I had her figured out she'd go and growl at me again.  One should never get complacent(?sp) regardless of how many dogs they've dealt with--all it takes is that one time you've let your guard down and you make a mistake and get bit.  Sorry, if that was off topic but that's one reason why I don't think these dogs make good pets for most people--not too many want to change their whole lifestyle for their dog. 

whtsthfrequency

is the dog that attacks without any warning beforehand.

I think most every dog does give a warning. An ear twitch. A split second set of the tail, a subtle lowering of the head. Signals often missed by people. Especially if the people have been successful in stopping the growl. They are usually successful in that by punishing the dog at the wrong time, such as the last thing, which is usually a growl.

The definition has been set forth of HA by intent, as opposed to fear or anxiety or self-defense, which are also intentions but are ones that are managable and fixable to an extent. On the other hand, many might label HA any dog that has bit a human under any circumstances, such as a bumbling human making stupid mistakes, such as was my case. And I didn't view it as HA. I viewed it as me being a stone cold idiot and my dog actually showed restraint even though it did cause injury. Then there are toothings that aren't intended at all but happen as an accident of play and sometimes the human panics and thinks it's a bite because teeth broke their skin.

  can see people sort of getting a bit heady over "saving" dogs.  My dog never let me get that way.  As soon as I thought I had her figured out she'd go and growl at me again.  One should never get complacent(?sp) regardless of how many dogs they've dealt with--all it takes is that one time you've let your guard down and you make a mistake and get bit.  Sorry, if that was off topic but that's one reason why I don't think these dogs make good pets for most people--not too many want to change their whole lifestyle for their dog. 

yes, my one experience with "saving" an very aggressive dog- she wasn't fixed, she wasn't safe, our lives revolved around managing her and frankly we were LUCKY she didn't kill some kid. I wouldn't do it again. It's not a bad thing to euthanize some dogs.

snownose

snownose

Excuse me, I am a little confused here....in the Anticipation and Excitement thread you posted the following:

<<<<<>>>>>>

Then this:

<<<<>>>>>>

 

All folks who had to deal with some form of aggression be it fear, resource guarding or other, and and have kept or adopted out a dog with that type of affliction makes us all rehabbers of some sort.....I have had to deal with resource guarding and extremely fearful dogs that would dish out a bite if not handled correctly, and so have many other folks.......Lori/Willowchow is a good example,also.....

My apologies, I have misunderstood you from post one....looks like we are all in the same boat then......people rescuing dogs and doing the best we can.........it seems we can not figure out what true HA really is......   

If I am not mistaken, is this the post DPU was refering to?

I am not sure........but, I am still getting the feeling that Sir Drake is still fishing in the same pond as all of us who have rescued dogs .......there is no super ability............it is what it is......just luck in some cases and some success in other cases......as we have all experienced.....as has he/she/it.......

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

If I had seen this previously I would have responded. Is this one of those posts that are edited after the thread has moved past? Not that it matters in the least.  I meant to say "absolutely have been diagnosed as TRUE HD." Which is what I have been saying. That I work with dogs that other trainers, Vets, and shelter staff have diagnosed as HA. Of course you're making a huge deal about me forgetting a few words, and I do see how it looks, but it was a mistake. I make them. Should have proofread. Shoot me. Whatever.

Again I have said from the beginning that I take on the ones no one else wants to deal with, the ones that are recommended PTS, I NEVER said I had super powers, a magic cape, or was better than anyone else. Never. I believe I have repeatedly respectfully applauded DPU's and your efforts at rescue and I continue to do so. Make of it what you will.

Excellent, I applaud you for making a dent in the messed up dog world......as we all are trying to do.....

I do have a question in reference to how the dogs are placed, are they with you, are they adoptable and are in new homes? I can't speak for all, but, I take in dogs and make them a new and good pack member.......and sometimes, I keep the dog.......another reason I have 5 at this point......the pack works well and I hate to break them up......just me, though.....

like this.......

willowchow

Also, I wanted to mention that other displays besides biting like growling at people, lunging or raising fur, showing teeth are aggressive.  So, I don't think a dog has to actually bite to be human aggressive.  My dog has never bit a human but given the chance in certain situations she would.

Agree and I also think the opposite is true.  For example, my in-laws dog will start growling ferociously when he feels his space is invaded.  My brother in laws think this is funny and will sometimes keep trying to pick him up or touch his back.  Now if they go up to Kenya and tease her, they will never get a growl.  She doesn't growl.  Instead, she will close her mouth, then start licking her lips, then show her teeth if the continue to pester her and she feels cornered.  People are typically appalled at a dog showing her teeth (NOT biting or snapping) but yet they think the growling is funny and cute.  Just because a dog curls a lip does not mean the dog is aggressive or wants to bite.

So I guess for me whether or not a dog is human aggressive is just a matter of the dog's threshold and how appropriate that is.  I think ALL dogs would bite a human if pushed far enough.  ALL dogs have their own warning signs and their own thresholds.  So I think whether aggression is provoked vs. unprovoked is again a matter of threshold because I think it's very very very rare that a dog will truly attack a human, unprovoked. 

I think you are right. 

I agree any dog can be aggressive, but there is getting aggressive over something happening and then there is my type of dog who doesn't need something to necessarily "happen" to act that way. And, she'd overreact at that.  Hope this makes sense, LOL!

snownose

I do have a question in reference to how the dogs are placed, are they with you, are they adoptable and are in new homes?

When I was still working with aggressive dogs (which I am not currently doing and have not done in nearly 2 years due to a medical condition I explained in the anticipation thread) the dogs were placed in homes and were adoptable to the right people. These dogs were never placed lightly to just anyone and in the cases where I failed the dogs were humanely euthanized. This does not mean that there was no one who could save them, just that I couldn't, and since I was the only one there, and their last hope, you get the picture. I very rarely kept a dog when I did work with them at home. That was never my goal, and although I loved them dearly if I kept them who would help the next ones when I had no more room? I was a stepping stone, first and foremost, I was never to be the end of the road for them, except for those that I could not save. I currently have 2 dogs, a Golden Retriever, Drake, who is a working water fowl retriever, and my Great Pyrenees pup, Judge.

willowchow

I think you are right. 

I agree any dog can be aggressive, but there is getting aggressive over something happening and then there is my type of dog who doesn't need something to necessarily "happen" to act that way. And, she'd overreact at that.  Hope this makes sense, LOL!

I agree.

For example, my GSD has never bit someone but would probably bite a human who charged up to her, cornered her, and acted aggressively toward her (hit her or did something physical to her).  Human aggressive?  Yes, but in the context I don't think anyone would blame her.  Now my mom's cousin's GSD bit my brother.  We were at a cottage she was renting and he did not see a dog tethered outside, in fact since we see her so rarely we did not even know she HAD a GSD.  He walked up to the back door and the dog lunged at him, biting him in the thigh causing punctures and ripping through his pants and boxers.  My brother was probably 14 years old at the time and has always been pretty small, so he was basically a child who made no threatening gesture to the dog and the dog was not even on her own property.  Now that type of human aggression is what I find inappropriate.  That threshold is way too low.  I have no problems with dogs defending themselves and even defending people to an extent, but a dog that cannot distinguish a real threat is dangerous.  My mom's cousin had to crate her if anyone else was around and even then the dog would lunge at the sides of the crate.  That GSD was put down shortly after because it was not her first incident doing something like that.  I do not know if the dog had a heath problem or was never trained or socialized, but whatever the cause, her level of aggression was very unsafe and not a good mental state for her to be living in.