Human aggression....

Willow would of done the same thing.  If the door bell rings or we are expecting company she is all set up in the bedroom.  It wouldn't matter if it's our specific house, if she's in it first, it's hers.  Oddly, she's able to walk in on people already in our house with no trouble. 

willowchow

LOL, I can see people sort of getting a bit heady over "saving" dogs.  My dog never let me get that way.  As soon as I thought I had her figured out she'd go and growl at me again.  One should never get complacent(?sp) regardless of how many dogs they've dealt with--all it takes is that one time you've let your guard down and you make a mistake and get bit.  Sorry, if that was off topic but that's one reason why I don't think these dogs make good pets for most people--not too many want to change their whole lifestyle for their dog. 

Thank you for saying that.  I think that we, who value and love our dogs, and all dogs, really, can get caught up in the "save them all" mentality.  But, we must realize that the general public, even if they WOULD change their whole lifestyle, must live with their families, bosses, neighbors, and friends, none of whom want to change theirs to accomodate their loved one's problem dog.  There are children and other vulnerable humans in the Universe, who could accidentally come into contact with an aggressive dog, and if even one person makes the colossal mistake of assuming that aggression has been "cured" or "rehabilitated" or has been medicated away, then people are in danger.  While that doesn't mean that a HA dog cannot be managed responsibly, not many people/families are equipped to do that.  Aggression is always there, under the surface, even in ordinary dogs of stable temperament.  But, unfortunately, for RS dogs, it seems that the difficulty is organic and not behavioral in the training sense, and for other HA dogs, it's a ticking time bomb if the owner isn't up to the task.  Meanwhile, nice dogs, without any of these problems, die in shelters every day while the zealots try to save the aggressive ones... If we put as much energy into insuring that EVERY shelter has a behavior evaluation program, we might be able to funnel a lot more of the nice dogs, who would otherwise die, into rescue.

spiritdogs

  Meanwhile, nice dogs, without any of these problems, die in shelters every day while the zealots try to save the aggressive ones...

I am thankful that my particular love for my breed has taught me this lesson from day one. I've found myself saying TOO MANY times "this dog has NO place in society and never will". Its easier with pit bulls because there are so many expedable ones (god forgive me for saying so) and the likely hood of them getting adopted is slim let alone the huge liability.

But its usually the truth and even though I'm being breed specific here it really needs to be taken into account on a dog by dog basis regardless of the breed. And visa versa.

AuroraLove

spiritdogs

  Meanwhile, nice dogs, without any of these problems, die in shelters every day while the zealots try to save the aggressive ones...

I am thankful that my particular love for my breed has taught me this lesson from day one. I've found myself saying TOO MANY times "this dog has NO place in society and never will". Its easier with pit bulls because there are so many expedable ones (god forgive me for saying so) and the likely hood of them getting adopted is slim let alone the huge liability.

But its usually the truth and even though I'm being breed specific here it really needs to be taken into account on a dog by dog basis regardless of the breed. And visa versa.

I agree with both of you 100%. Please don't take what I have said as me trying to save every "vicious" dog in the universe, because I certainly have never done that. There are always dogs that cannot be and should not be placed with anyone. There have been many dogs that I have worked with that I have had to say, he/she needs to be PTS. The majority of the shelter dogs I have worked with were dogs that were recommended to be PTS that the shelter workers saw something in them and asked me to help. So I tried, and often it worked, but how could I not try? I did not go traipsing around to shelters saying "let me see the worst you've got" on some sort of power trip. I was asked for help. 

A homeless dog with RS should always, IMO, be PTS. Being that is a progressive disorder the odds of someone being willing to rearrange their life and do what is necessary to keep themselves and the public safe are very low. Add to that the odds of most people, even experienced ones, being able to handle the intensity of aggression as the syndrome progresses and you are just asking for trouble. The RS dogs that I have handled were owned (with the exception of two that were diagnosed in a shelter environment and were euthanized), and had owners that were dedicated to managing the illness as long as possible, and that is an entirely different situation. They still have to reach the same end point, but if they are willing and able to manage it responsibly, I have no problem with that. In a shelter/rescue environment though, these dogs should be humanely euthanized IMO.

spiritdogs

If we put as much energy into insuring that EVERY shelter has a behavior evaluation program, we might be able to funnel a lot more of the nice dogs, who would otherwise die, into rescue.

I, too, think that would be best. If possible. I'm not privy to the finances of our local county shelter but they don't have a lot of money. Their mobile adoption trailer was a gift from a private citizen. A wealthy person paid to have this enclosed mobile kennel with climate control built and delivered to the shelter. It's not something the department could have afforded on their own. So, a person trained in eval might get paid minimally, which makes it hard for that person to survive, unless they had another well-paying job which would require at least some of their time. And it would be an important job in a city like Dallas, though it would be hard to bring that to the forefront, as all hail the new Cowboy Stadium. But maybe the existing ACO's could get more training. Are they likely to make mistakes with iffy dogs? Yes. But the dogs that have the patience to put up with bumbling humans would have a longer chance at adoption. But it is still on the owner to be educated and not create problems in dogs. And that would be a much harder task.

 Apologies for jumping in so deep into the thread. Life has been crazy lately and I have not been able to post regarding anything that requires a lot of thought. This is a great thread so far and I am sorry I have missed a lot of it.

 I think many dogs that are HA can be worked with and in most cases the aggression is never really as bad as it is made out to be. It all depends on the owner and the experience and to many degrees the desire they have to know and understand their pets.

 If Hektor were in an average household, one that just wanted a family dog and really did not know much about dogs in general he most likely would have already bitten someone and might even have been destroyed. He has issues with fear (due to being speared through the fence with a sharpened pole when he was younger) and he is terrortorial. Combine that with the tenacity of his breed and you have a dog that reacts with aggression when confronted by something he fears and one who does not stand and bark, or stand and growl but one who rushes right in to destroy that which he fears.

 He is worse when someone first arrives to the home and settles once they have been in the home. He is great outside the home unless he is a large crowd surrounded by strangers and he feels closed in. His first defense is always to attack. He recently went to a doggie hotel for 2 days and most of the staff could not handle him because they were afraid. One tiny young lady was able to handle an exersice him with no problems, because she saw through his tough guy facade. She could go an get him out of his kennel, the others could not, he would growl and lunge at them through the fence.

 We continue to work with him and he continues to improve. I consider him to be safe under the restrictions and safeguards in our home, but I do not think most average dog owners would take the time or the effort to understand or to help the dog to improve on his shortcomings.

dgriego

We continue to work with him and he continues to improve. I consider him to be safe under the restrictions and safeguards in our home, but I do not think most average dog owners would take the time or the effort to understand or to help the dog to improve on his shortcomings.

How much of that would you say is due to his special breed? Correct me if I am wrong but he is bred for tenacity and to hunt and latch onto prey and hold until the human releases him, right? It sounds like he is applying his work ethic to other solutions, such as self-defense. Fortunately, he has your capable handling. I guess I'm trying to figure out if his behavior is tied to guarding and fear or if it's, in part, a result of the specifically bred work ethic. The 100 percent, all-out launch and engage. The nearly unbreakable lock until you give the correct signal.

I wonder if that can also be applied to other breeds of specific temperment. Akitas, for example. An educated owner might never take an Akita to a dog park, for example.

ron2

How much of that would you say is due to his special breed? Correct me if I am wrong but he is bred for tenacity and to hunt and latch onto prey and hold until the human releases him, right? It sounds like he is applying his work ethic to other solutions, such as self-defense. Fortunately, he has your capable handling. I guess I'm trying to figure out if his behavior is tied to guarding and fear or if it's, in part, a result of the specifically bred work ethic. The 100 percent, all-out launch and engage. The nearly unbreakable lock until you give the correct signal.

 I think his breed has a lot to do with it, but I also think that the main problem is twofold, we received him as a older puppy, he was born in Feb and we did not get him until late July. Prior to that he had not seen the outside of the dog pen and was not socialized at all, add to that the situation with the teenagers poking him with a sharpened pole through the fence and combine that with his natural Dogo tendancies and you have my Hektor.

 He is a sweetheart with those he loves and I know for a fact that anyone ever trying to harm one of us would have to kill him first, we can take away bones put our hands in his dish, hug him, kiss him, startle him and he has never once shown any sign of aggression, but have a stranger come to the door and he transforms.

 I have worked with him getting him used to wearing a muzzle. I had to use a muzzle in order for me to be relaxed when handleing him. Once we  did that we worked on people coming to the door and then into the house. His first reaction was to lunge at them, when he lunges he goes high (not legs or arms) and then we corrected him (gently) and once everyone was inside and he was calm then we remove the muzzle and every so often the guest will toss a treat which I allow him to eat.

 We have reached a point now where he is not lunging, we still get growls on occasion and raised hair but with visitors he knows he will now greet them with pleasure. He has progressed to being allowed loose with company (depending on who it is) and he is doing well, but I probably will never trust him 100% around non family members.

 I also purchased a good quality walk through gate that blocks off the hallway and the entrance to the kids rooms, this way I can let him have free reign in the house with me even if my son has friends over. He has never lunged or growled at any of the kids even those he does not know (weird huh) only adults.  Guys between 18-25 are those he dislikes the most (maybe because of the poking through the fence).

Thanks for sharing that. And he does sound like a sweetheart, too. Congrats on the muzzle. I know Glenda uses one with Sheba when she goes to the vet or certain public places. She's learned to see it as a wonderful thing and wears it like jewelry.