Human aggression....

"displaced aggression"....thanks that is the term that describes my experience.  The only word I could think of was "frustration". 

DPU

Dog_ma

What would you (any of you) label a dog who bit for say, reaching the end of a leash and being prevented from moving forward? Assume pain is not an issue. The dog is displeased with being restricted.

I would label a dog as true HA for the condition of SRS, Sudden Rage Syndrone.  I would also label a dog with a bite history who is able to survive in the wild, have had very bad experiences with Humans, and exhibits behaviors to warn humans to stay away. 

I am sorry I did not realize that's what you were referring to. "Rage Syndrome" also known as "Idiopathic Aggression" does NOT meet the requirements for "true" HA, by my definition. Most dogs with RS will show abnormal (epileptiform) spikes on an EEG indicating seizures as RS is usually the result of "behavioral seizures". Although you can often get false negatives on EEG with RS dogs, many of them DO respond to treatment with anticonvulsants such as phenobarbital. Although this syndrome is often progressive dogs can often be given a significantly longer lease on life without the owners fearing for theirs. Did you say your rescue sent a dog with RS to "boot camp"???? Was he ever medicated? *shudder*

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

Did you say your rescue sent a dog with RS to "boot camp"???? Was he ever medicated? *shudder*

Are you judging/second guessing the decisions and actions of the rescue group to try and help the dog by rehabbing and then placing.  Were you part of the situation and involved so you are familiar with particulars.  Is sending a dog to a boot camp or living with a behaviorist not appropiate action when the foster family reaches its capacity.  Are you familiar with the resources that have to be spent in order to perform this type of recourse.  If you have experience, then you would know that the onset does not immediately lead to the final diagnosis.  When the dog is in that state it is true HA, no doubt about it. 

Obviously I wasn't there, but if you know enough to term it as RS, it must have been fairly evident what was going on, yes? I am aware of the resources required to care for and diagnose a dog with RS, as well as what it takes to manage it (you cannot "rehab" an illness)  since my first experience with this syndrome was with my OWN English Springer Spaniel, Freckles. They DO give signals, if you pay attention and only when they are so far gone that even medication won't make a difference (It is a progressive illness) do they get to the point where they attack everything that moves and essentially give no warning because everything is a worthy target. The reason for this is because the seizures increase in both frequency and intensity therefor RS is a MEDICAL CONDITION and does not fall under the definition of "true" HA. IF this dog was truly at the point where the seizures were that frequent and that intense the kindest thing to do for that dog was to humanely euthanize him from the get-go. IF the dog truly was RS, sending him to "boot camp" was cruel and harsh as he was unable to control the aggression and was being punished for something that was completely beyond his control. I am sorry, but as someone who has lived with dogs with RS and watched the progression, and helped to diagnose it in others I find that cruel.

Liesje

"displaced aggression"....thanks that is the term that describes my experience.  The only word I could think of was "frustration". 

You're welcome

Edited by Benedict - Staff edits are not to be removed by members. 

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

Did you say your rescue sent a dog with RS to "boot camp"???? Was he ever medicated? *shudder*

Are you judging/second guessing the decisions and actions of the rescue group to try and help the dog by rehabbing and then placing.  Were you part of the situation and involved so you are familiar with particulars.  Is sending a dog to a boot camp or living with a behaviorist not appropiate action when the foster family reaches its capacity.  Are you familiar with the resources that have to be spent in order to perform this type of recourse.  If you have experience, then you would know that the onset does not immediately lead to the final diagnosis.  When the dog is in that state it is true HA, no doubt about it. 

Obviously I wasn't there, but if you know enough to term it as RS, it must have been fairly evident what was going on, yes? I am aware of the resources required to care for and diagnose a dog with RS, as well as what it takes to manage it (you cannot "rehab" an illness)  since my first experience with this syndrome was with my OWN English Springer Spaniel, Freckles. They DO give signals, if you pay attention and only when they are so far gone that even medication won't make a difference (It is a progressive illness) do they get to the point where they attack everything that moves and essentially give no warning because everything is a worthy target. The reason for this is because the seizures increase in both frequency and intensity therefor RS is a MEDICAL CONDITION and does not fall under the definition of "true" HA. IF this dog was truly at the point where the seizures were that frequent and that intense the kindest thing to do for that dog was to humanely euthanize him from the get-go. IF the dog truly was RS, sending him to "boot camp" was cruel and harsh as he was unable to control the aggression and was being punished for something that was completely beyond his control. I am sorry, but as someone who has lived with dogs with RS and watched the progression, and helped to diagnose it in others I find that cruel.

I have to agree.  Of course, we humans want to characterize many of our own mentally ill or neurologically impaired folks as "wrong" or "responsible for their actions", when, in many cases, they have an organic brain dysfunction which causes permanent or transitory disability over which they really have zero control.  So, what would make us think that dogs would not be consigned to "jail", too?  Yet, those people, just like dogs with RS, can live more serene lives with a bit of pharmacological help, if we are willing to investigate their conditions thoroughly and use the most advanced therapies.  Money, alas, makes a difference, regardless of which species is being treated.  But, IMO, it is less cruel to euthanize a dog that suffers from RS, than it is to punish him for behavior which he cannot control, and cannot understand.  Some people who have suffered with mental illness for years will often try to euth themselves - really no wonder, sadly.  We don't do well by them either.  Maybe someday, things will be better...

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

IF the dog truly was RS, sending him to "boot camp" was cruel and harsh as he was unable to control the aggression and was being punished for something that was completely beyond his control. I am sorry, but as someone who has lived with dogs with RS and watched the progression, and helped to diagnose it in others I find that cruel.

No you were not there and you have no clue as to how many people were involved, professionals, and vets and what was done.  You my write posts and judge a rescue's beginning actions from the vantage point that you claim you have gon through the situation until the end.  I am sure you conveniently forget when you were first exposed to such a dog and the breed that you had should have given you a good clue, that is if you researched the breed.  But you have no clue once again the type of dog this was, its breed, its background.  Go ahead and judge and provide vague googled information all the time.  What members on this forum want to hear is what are the details of experience that lead to diagnosis of SRS (springer version)?   What were the choices you made.  I can tell you, the symptoms are subtle at the beginning.

What info did I give that was vague and googled??? Why is it that you think you're experience is so much better than mine again???

No you were not there and you have no clue as to how many people were involved, professionals, and vets and what was done. You my write posts and judge a rescue's beginning actions from the vantage point that you claim you have gon through the situation until the end. I am sure you conveniently forget when you were first exposed to such a dog and the breed that you had should have given you a good clue, that is if you researched the breed. But you have no clue once again the type of dog this was, its breed, its background. Go ahead and judge and provide vague googled information all the time. What members on this forum want to hear is what are the details of experience that lead to diagnosis of SRS (springer version)? What were the choices you made. I can tell you, the symptoms are subtle at the beginning.

So wait....I'm confused.....did that dog have actual human aggression or RS? What was decided? Your last posts seem to imply that the dog did not have RS/medical condition and behavioral camp was the best option....but earlier you imply that that dog did have RS?

 Edited by Benedict - Staff edits are not to be removed by members.

 Admin note..

The baiting, underhanded rudeness and personally directed remarks stop.  Now.  Debate in the polite manner which I know you all are capable of.  

Thanks.  

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

IF the dog truly was RS, sending him to "boot camp" was cruel and harsh as he was unable to control the aggression and was being punished for something that was completely beyond his control. I am sorry, but as someone who has lived with dogs with RS and watched the progression, and helped to diagnose it in others I find that cruel.

No you were not there and you have no clue as to how many people were involved, professionals, and vets and what was done.  You my write posts and judge a rescue's beginning actions from the vantage point that you claim you have gon through the situation until the end.  **content removed from original**

We raised Freckles from a pup and I was 13 years old the first time he growled at me over food (He was a little over a year). A week later he lunged at me when I walked by his food bowl. Within 4 months we had to leave his leash on at ALL times, because he wouldn't let us take it off or put it on when it was off. The Vets missed it several times despite his breed, and his EEG was negative. By the time we did manage to get him on meds he had to have two leashes on at all times in case one came off. We had to lock him in a room when we were sleeping for fear he would attack us in our sleep. None of us were safe from him and being gone from the house and coming home was like running a gauntlet, but my father adored that dog, and NEEDED to know why. The Vet tried phenobarb as a last ditch effort when he was almost 2 and there was a dramatic difference. We got another 4 years with him, gradually increasing his dosage until it was apparent the meds couldn't keep up at which time we put him to sleep and eased his suffering existence.

 

But you have no clue once again the type of dog this was, its breed, its background.

You are right, I don't. I didn't diagnose it though, and the way you have phrased it in previous posts was that you KNEW the dog had RS and that's WHY you wouldn't bring it into your home, and that it THEN went to boot camp. That is what I consider cruel.

 

**content removed from original**.  What members on this forum want to hear is what are the details of experience that lead to diagnosis of SRS (springer version)?   What were the choices you made.  I can tell you, the symptoms are subtle at the beginning.

I just answered this in respect to this dog. The symptoms often resemble dominance aggression and resource guarding at the onset, but the give away is how EXTREME the reaction is to the "perceived" slightest threat. As far as choices made in that particular dog, I prayed for my life, thank you very much, but I was a child then. Happy now???? I didn't have to google it thank you.