Human aggression....

    • Gold Top Dog

    In my mind it doesn't really matter if it's "true" human aggression or a specific reason for the aggression.  It all equates to my dog is not trustworthy and would not make a good pet for most people. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     I know I mentioned it before, so I will mention it again. The county shelter usually has a mobile adoption thing every Saturday in front of the Petco in Sherman, Tx. Sometimes, they have the large kennel out there with medium and large breed dogs. One time they had a collection of dogs, including an Akita. The Akita was fine with almost all the dogs except one. A spaniel of some type, if I remember. He attacked her. Then things settled down. Then he attacked her again, totally ignoring the other dogs in the kennel. This time, there was blood. But it was the Akita's blood. The other dog had toothed him him the fight. However, they knew the Akita launched the first lunge. So, even though the spaniel drew blood, it was considered self-defense. Possibly, wisely so. For the Akita, they called another ACO to drive out and pick him up for his last ride. He had seen his last sunrise.

    Some might say, who the heck puts an Akita in general population? Trained ACO's who don't know that much about Akitas, that's who. Should he have been kenneled alone with special instructions? Sure. But we are then expecting JQP to have a knowledge of proper handing of that dog. People who can barely park it between the lines.

    At a Petsmart in McKinney, Tx., ( the very one I helped to build back in 1999), there was a rescue org, actually a few there. This one org had a brindle Rhodesian Ridgeback that had spent quite a bit of time in shelters. And was totally DA. If he could see the dog, it was something to ward off. The lady's instructions were detailed. Limit public exposure. Always, always muzzled in public.  A strong leash and harness or a collar that will not slip off. None of those stupid flexi-leads. This 80 lb dog would just snap that right out of her hand in full pursuit. In her words, he needed a one pet home. Preferrably with no children.

    Anyone here fit that bill? Not many, I imagine. Most people here have more than one pet, sometimes children or grandchildren, too. Work for a living and would have to leave the dog crated or kenneled. And everyone here is dog-wise and educated, hence this thread. As opposed to a regular redneck who, the first time the dog acts up, will try to show the dog "who's boss" because he's seen it done on t.v. and the dog rips him a new one and now has a bite history. There might be someone out there who can handle that dog, not me, in spite of my superior strength and height. Meanwhile, 9 other dogs with no problems have been put to sleep because this one dog took up the time and resources.

    But I do think most dogs are misdiagnosed and are only "aggressive" out of fear or lack of socialization. In most cases it is a defense mechanism. I would get so angry watching animal police shows where they did the food guarding test by sticking a fake hand in the food, more than once. This one dog, in particular, they strove to make fail. They stuck the hand in and the dog pushed it away. The stuck it in again and the dog pushed it away. They put it in a third time and this time the dog mouth and grabbed the hand and moved it away. They decided he failed the test. When I was a child, I was taught not to bother a dog while he is eating. Disobedience earned a hand slap or a spanking, whatever it took to leave the dog alone. Let me rephrase that. When I was a kid, kids were not allowed to go around sticking their hands into the dog's food bowl. I understand the need to be able to take something away from the dog if necessary, but ideally, you teach trade, so that they don't become resource guarders. Resource guarding, btw, is a survival skill. So, that dog got PTS for doing what it takes to survive and for not putting up with bad manners that would have earned me a spanking.

    Another time, another show, they had an emaciated and starved Boxer who had not even gained all of his weight back and they put him through the hand in bowl test. And he air snapped and snarled. And failed. And died, via euth.

    And if it weren't for the likes of DPU, Sir Drake, and Snownose, and others, some of these dogs would be dead because of once again, the sins of Man. Dogs that turn out to be okay.

    So, I'm not here to say euth all the dogs that lift a lip or even get in scuffles, either. As has been pointed out time and again, it must be a case by case evaluation, but we are woefully lacking in people, resources, and time.

    And I think it is valid and worthy to rehab an aggressive dog, even in a shelter. There's a guy on t.v. who's favorite socialization dog is Popeye, named because he lost an eye in a dog fighting ring and was seized and probably was going to get the needle but now is able to walk off-leash down the streets of Los Angeles. If he can do it, why can't others?

    One last example to think about. It breaks my heart but I will repeat it. At the Sherman Animal Shelter is a 9 year old female Lab. When she was 6 months old, her owner poured gasoline on her and set her on fire. He got a fine and a probated sentence. She was giving reconstructive surgery but the scars won't diminish and the hair is spotty and she looks like the canine equivalent of Frankenstein. And she is human aggressive. Especially towards people of darker skin color (like her original owner) but towards humans in general, of all hues. She cannot be adopted out partly because of the HA, and because they cannot refuse adoption on the grounds of a human's skin color. And the state of Texas has decreed that she will live out her natural life there, as an example, I suppose. And she is still there. Over 4th of July weekend, I donated some food at the shelter and I am powerless to stop myself from walking through there. She is still there, last kennel on the last row, facing the hills. If I could have just 3 seconds with her original owner, I would rid the world of a monster.

    Is there a way to rehab her after nearly all of her life in a shelter with her first experience with a human being that of a living hell? Is it humane to try and rehab her enough to live with a human? Or should she go to her final rest?

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    • Gold Top Dog

      Is fulling the dog's needs which I think most have said that there was probably some serious lacking in the past, and building trust enough to turn the dog around.  Or should force be met with a stronger force so the dog's survival instincts kicks in in high gear. 

    the former, definitely. Most aggression is fear-based so using force will just make it worse. Other common causes of dog-bites, like resource guarding or collar-grabbing respond nicely to trust-building and tend to escalate if treated with "force".

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    • Bronze

    So you are asking for specific case scenarios of rehab of HA dogs? I will first point out that I do not believe I have ever rehabbed a "true" HA dog, by the definition that I, personally, gave above. I HAVE rehabbed many dogs that had bitten humans and were termed HA by other trainers, Vets, and shelter staff. I just want to reiterate that first. Now, just let me know if you are asking for specific case, or generalities, and I will be happy to respond. I will warn you that if you ask for specific cases, I will be giving both successes and failures, because I am not perfect, and I feel it is necessary to give both for a couple of  reasons. A) to demonstrate that all dogs respond differently and even ones with what appear to be very similar symptoms, fears, and triggers will not respond in the same way, or even to the same treatment. There are some general introductory treatments that are always the best bet IME, but are never a guarantee. In fact, IME, when working with severely abused/neglected dogs (HA or not) there is never any guarantee that you will succeed, or to what degree. B) Following the theory of reason A I wish to be sure that all people know there is significant risk involved any time you put yourself in close proximity to a so called "HA dog" and to do this I must balance my successes with my failures. It is not all roses and rainbows.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Excuse me, I am a little confused here....in the Anticipation and Excitement thread you posted the following:

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    Then this:

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    All folks who had to deal with some form of aggression be it fear, resource guarding or other, and and have kept or adopted out a dog with that type of affliction makes us all rehabbers of some sort.....I have had to deal with resource guarding and extremely fearful dogs that would dish out a bite if not handled correctly, and so have many other folks.......Lori/Willowchow is a good example,also.....

    My apologies, I have misunderstood you from post one....looks like we are all in the same boat then......people rescuing dogs and doing the best we can.........it seems we can not figure out what true HA really is......      

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    • Bronze

    DPU

    SirDrakeOfTheCreek

    So you are asking for specific case scenarios of rehab of HA dogs? I will first point out that I do not believe I have ever rehabbed a "true" HA dog, by the definition that I, personally, gave above. I HAVE rehabbed many dogs that had bitten humans and were termed HA by other trainers, Vets, and shelter staff. I just want to reiterate that first. Now, just let me know if you are asking for specific case, or generalities, and I will be happy to respond.

    Share whatever you want on the topic that you feel will help others if they come across a similar, lesser, or more intense situation.  Especially if you felt your approach to the situation was unique and you tailored the approach to the dog's personality type and the environment that the dog had to live in. 

    I am happy to share, but in most cases what the average person should do when coming across an animal like this is steer clear, or call someone with experience. The average person shouldn't be handling an alleged HA dog without guidance from an experienced individual. 

    In my history, I have had to deal with a HA dog when I was inexperienced and we lived together but separate.  Would not do that today.   In fostering, I have had to deal with HA dogs with respect to fear biting.  Dogs that were HA and bit during alpha rolls.  Dogs that was HA when medically looked at or treated.  A dog that was HA due to displacement behavior of another more intense aggression.  Etc.  I consider all of these types of HA to be fixable but not with just managing the environment.  Trust in the dog was eventually restored and the dog was placed with a family that was a good fit.  I will admit, I never always used the gentliest approach...sometimes and depending on the dog and situation, I could get pretty tough.

    All of the dogs that I have dealt with had similar "ailments" and to varying degrees. The dog's restored trust in humans is always the #1 goal and the MOST important thing. I don't however, understand "getting tough"? In what way?

    OMG, I left the SRS dog which because of my experience, I refused to deal with.  I also wondering about those that had to deal with the extreme cases and since time has passed by, if in their reflections, they would have done something differently in hindsight.

    What was so different about the SRS dog? How was this dogs behavior more than you could handle, may I ask? Every single time I have failed I have wondered what I could have done differently. It is the nature of the beast.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm still unclear of the definition of a HA dog-ALONE

    What kind of DA are we speaking of?

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm not thrilled with the definition of "true HA dog," in part because I don't get it.


    What would you (any of you) label a dog who bit for say, reaching the end of a leash and being prevented from moving forward? Assume pain is not an issue. The dog is displeased with being restricted.

    • Gold Top Dog

    So, the dog is at the end of his leash, I'm assuming the person is a few feet behind, and the dog just swings around and goes at the person?  I'm just trying to get a visual because I've had growling when she didn't want to sit but never anything when she was any distance from me.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Dog_ma
    What would you (any of you) label a dog who bit for say, reaching the end of a leash and being prevented from moving forward? Assume pain is not an issue. The dog is displeased with being restricted.

     

    Is the bite directed at a stranger or the handler......

    I personally have not dealt with a dog like that.....but, I have seen many dogs do the Jekyll and Hyde thing once a leash is snapped to their collar.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Dog_ma

    What would you (any of you) label a dog who bit for say, reaching the end of a leash and being prevented from moving forward? Assume pain is not an issue. The dog is displeased with being restricted.

     

    I was bit by such a dog, the dog was leash reactive and also knew no boundaries.  I was walking the dog, working on the issue of the dog pulling so hard on the leash (a reason it was taking so long for the dog to get adopted).  We were actually making some progress when the dog saw another dog quite far off in the distance (I'd say at least 300 feet away).  He didn't lunge per se, but was pulling again and hit the end of the lead, turned back toward me, and lunged on my back.  He bit my left shoulder twice.  Just as a knee-jerk reaction I elbowed him off me but he came back and got my hips and my leg.  Then he bit onto my upper left arm and held on, pulling and shaking me, making growly noises and looking quite possessed.  It took months to heal (physically - I am not afraid of dogs so I don't really have an emotional scar, especially not knowing the dog's history I cannot blame him).  The gist of it was this dog was a very large, high energy dog dumped at a shelter with no training or boundaries ever in his life and when he got frustrated, he just went after people.  Honestly though I would not label this human "aggression".  Lots of frustration and reactivity, yes.  A behaviorist and two trainers worked with the dog several times a week.  I attended an adoption even and made dang sure that dog was not released to anyone with kids or anyone who couldn't deal with that type of frustration and energy.

    So no, if my experience is what you mean, I don't necessarily label that "human aggression".  Still I don't care to deal with dogs like this.  He was restricted from volunteers and worked with trained professionals only. 

    • Bronze

    Dog_ma

    I'm not thrilled with the definition of "true HA dog," in part because I don't get it.

    Neither am I. I have never handled a dog with what I would term "true" HA, simply because that would require the dog to have no reason to do so, in the dogs point of view, and no medical condition as well. I, personally, think they are extremely rare, if they exist at all. As I have stated before, I have handled many dogs that were already termed "HA" by other trainers, Vets, and shelter staff, but I have never agreed with that diagnosis on any dog I have met or worked with.


    What would you (any of you) label a dog who bit for say, reaching the end of a leash and being prevented from moving forward? Assume pain is not an issue. The dog is displeased with being restricted.

     

    Who is the dog biting? Is there something that the dog specifically wants to go forward to get to (such as another dog and the dog is DA.), or does the dog just want to go forward to go forward? Either way, more than likely this is displaced aggression out of frustration/anxiety/fear, depending on if the dog wants to go toward something or away.....

    This is a simplified version, and I can't be entirely accurate without more info, but based on info provided, this is a fair statement IMO.