Human aggression....

Bonita of Bwana

You can not heal every wound, no matter how loving, how dedicated and how much you want to. Sometimes you can only whisper how much you love them as you allow someone you trust to help ease the pain and give them the peace they had lost for good.  THAT is the promise You made when you brought them into the world, that they would never be left alone to fight the monsters, they would never be made to tolerate pain you could avoid or heal.

I have tears in my eyes. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.  

 Thank you my friend,  sometimes you have to simply know when it is what it is.....

Bonita of Bwana

I have had dogs from being starved, being neglected to straight out abused dogs.......Luke, my passed GSD was really abused......he was starved, had to work for every kibble of food and being kicked for not performing, this exists all over the training arena (another reason why I am against working starving dogs to perform) and was still not his ideal weight.....when he came to me he just laid in the back of my vehicle, afraid to move......he got beat up by a dog in our neighborhood that was not even close to his ability.........how sad.......

It took years to get him to what he needed to be and wanted to be.....I know, he wanted to be more.......and he finally gained that status........he eventually turned into a great watch and guard dog............what a dog.......wow.......

Luke, my respect and love forever!!!!

Abuse does NOT guarantee a human aggressive dog, if I gave that impression I do apologise !! Just as with people some are able to rise above,  they may be damaged but thy go on to a life they choose. Others are more of a danger to themselves,more than to anyone else and then you have the one who are pushed and pushed until fighting back is the only method of survival they can find. Your Luke was apparently  the type of dog I consider to be a Champion's champion. The breeding and the lines are not anywhere as important as Heart and the temprament  of the dog. ( I often tell puppy owners  I can sell you a dog that will champion , BUT not every Champion should or is  bred.   A Champion used for  breeding must pass many health tests and certs  and have heart above and beyond what you would normally think of.

When I refer to the two reasons , Abuse and twisted wires,  I am speaking of extreme cases.  There was a dog Named Gucchi who was  set afire by teens, he survived and his story brought about the changing of this kind of injury to an animal and made it into a felony NOT a misemenaor.  He was a very sweet dog even after the horrific abuse .  Or you can go to the shelter here about almost any week and run into a Pit , pit mix who will be euthanized asap because he was tortured into a leval of aggression that makes him beyond a fighting dog but a time bomb. fed gunpowder and starved, beaten and left ot the elements , I have run in to families that like myself bring their dogs to the softball and soccer fields to train, where I am socializing and encouraging a happy confident dog , they are applying negative reinforcement any and every time the pup indicates a friendly overture.  It is nothing shy of tragic and it is a daily event  in the South, we are not talking about a thug ed out environment, or a redneck Klan type of moron, 

Bonita of Bwana

Thank you.......Luke was a special guy......he was with us for almost 13 years.....I miss him dearly!

I applaud all the efforts to rehab dogs, with any type of aggression. But there comes a point where either the dog can only be handled by the person who gained some of his/her trust or another person with whom the dog has worked. But there are only so much resources and so much time. Period, paragraph, new book. Municipal animal shelters have insurance liability and cannot adopt out a dog with proven aggression issues. Even our local shelter will jump ahead of their 7 day euth schedule and put down a dog that is a problem, right now. Whether that dog is just "misunderstood" or not.

Adults have responsibilities far beyond just their personal likes and gratifications. We have responsibility to ourselves, loved ones, and society in general. And sometimes, that means putting down a dog that will not be happy anywhere and is safe for no one except for the occasional dog whisperer superhero, flowing cape and all.

And I know that will hurt some feelings. It's not fair. As I was told growing up, when you are old enough to start shaving, maybe when you are old enough to vote, you're going to find that the world is not fair. So, deal with it.

We each do what we can and we spend our energies in pursuits appealing to us. And sometimes, for lack of a better description, miracles do happen.

While we talk about truly HA dogs, how many here have dealt with a dog that truly was misdiagnosed or misunderstood? Shelter workers are human, capable of making mistakes, including mislabelling anxiety as aggression or self-defense as a "biter".

Bonita, please accept my sympathy for your loss. As someone who has been through a very similar situation with my ex-MIL's Lab/Rottweiler-X that turned extraordinarily and unpredictably aggressive at the age of 2 1/2, I understand where you are coming from. We had tons of tests done on her and all came back clean. She simply was NOT aware of what she was doing and afterward was confused and disoriented. She attacked the other dogs most often and would not stop. When she would finally let go (No attempt at forcing her to was successful) she would collapse in exhaustion and confusion. We started to place her in a kennel when we could not be with her and limited her exposure to the other dogs except on lead. Her aggressive behavior was decidedly seizure-like, yet we were repeatedly told there was nothing wrong with her. At this point I was the ONLY one who would handle her, and I was constantly asking my then MIL to let her go. I couldn't stand the confusion on her face when she could feel the horror pumping off her loved ones after she had attacked another dog, a chair, anything. Again....VERY seizure-like. She couldn't understand, and after an attack would then try to clean the wounds on the dog that she had created. The dogs seemed to understand that she did not mean it, and before we removed her from them except on lead would allow her to clean those wounds until we took her away so we could take the injured dog to the Vet.

On the 4th of July 1997 we had her in the house and all company and other dogs were outside. She was in the kitchen where no one could accidentally get to her and I sat on the steps to be sure no one snuck in. There were no children at the party, all children had been asked to stay home as a precautionary measure requested by me. MIL wanted to keep trying, I should have told her no long before, but I didn't and I take responsibility for my own actions. I loved that dog with all my heart and it was a difficult decision in the most clear of circumstances.......these were not clear and we kept hoping some test would give us a diagnosis and we could save her. We loved her. She was the sweetest 90 pounds of mush you'd ever met before her "illness", and even during in between "episodes".  Anyway, MIL asked me to go in the house and get the tongs for the corn on the cob. I went in the kitchen, said hello to Angel, who was wagging her tail sweetly and nuzzling my hand to be pet. I pet her for a moment and she went and laid down against the wall. I was trying to reach into the cabinet above my head for the tongs..... (they were on the top shelf and I am only 5'4";) and I heard her get up. I assumed she was going to get a drink. It was a mistake we both would pay for. I knew better than to let my guard down around her as she appeared to have no clue when she was going to attack. I had one arm in the cabinet above my head and the other on the counter for balance. I was on my tippy toes, stretching, trying to reach what I couldn't see, but knew was there. Distracted.  Probably should have gotten a chair. I felt a FORCE on my arm, it grabbed my arm and whipped me around. I whacked my head on the corner of the cabinet and stumbled, I was being pulled....shook. I realized quickly what was happening and knew she would not let go. I turned my body parallel to hers, used my other arm to push her to the ground and I laid on top of her while it felt like she was ripping my arm in half. I managed to get my free arm around her neck and gained control over her head. She could chew but she couldn't shake. The other dogs had never fought back with her, had just froze and whimpered while she gnawed at them, and I did the same. I stayed as still as possible and tried to croon to her that she was okay, it was alright, she had to come back. What do you say to a dog that has no idea what it's doing?? In a short time....2-3 minutes, it was over. She let go, kinda shook her head and looked at me in puzzlement. I got up quickly, grabbed a towel and wrapped it around my arm. I sank to the floor and she crawled to me, on her belly, whimpering, comnfused. How my heart broke. She tried to lick my arm, laid her head in my lap and whimpered. If dogs can cry she was. I cried with her and told her she was a good girl and how much we loved her and that I would take the pain and confusion away. That I was sorry I had failed, and I had. I caused her to feel a pain she never should have because I was selfish, and because I didn't want to hurt my MIL's feelings. Because I thought one more day might bring a diagnosis.

I calmed myself, called the on call vet to have them meet me, and had my MIL come in to say goodbye. She was horrified that I had been attacked. It was not Angel's fault. Angel and I hopped in the car, took a ride to Burger King and sat in the parking lot where she enjoyed a Whopper with cheese and some fries. We then went to the Vets office where I held her in my arms telling her that she was a good girl, I loved her, it wasn't her fault, and we would be with her again before she knew it while she took her last breath. I ordered a necropsy and went to the hospital where I discovered I was VERY lucky. I got only 17 stitches, the majority of the injuries to my arm were punctures and of course most of it was left open to heal to prevent infection. There was no permanent damage. The necropsy revealed a malignant brain tumor in her frontal lobe. Nope, you just can't save them all.

ron2

I applaud all the efforts to rehab dogs, with any type of aggression. But there comes a point where either the dog can only be handled by the person who gained some of his/her trust or another person with whom the dog has worked. But there are only so much resources and so much time. Period, paragraph, new book.

Although this does happen, it is not, by any means a certainty. IME MANY dogs can get past this point of trusting and being safe around only the person who has rehabilitated it or a select few people.

There certainly are limitations to resources and time in ANY and all shelters which is exactly why not all of them can be saved.

 

Adults have responsibilities far beyond just their personal likes and gratifications. We have responsibility to ourselves, loved ones, and society in general. And sometimes, that means putting down a dog that will not be happy anywhere and is safe for no one except for the occasional dog whisperer superhero, flowing cape and all.

Of course we all have responsibilities to the general public and those we care about. Again, this is why they ALL can not be saved. However I DO feel that we also owe it to those that have a chance to give it to them, although I realize this view as well is not a popular one. (I am not a dog whisperer and capes are itchy and get in the way when you need quick reflexes )

We each do what we can and we spend our energies in pursuits appealing to us. And sometimes, for lack of a better description, miracles do happen.

Absolutely, but you have to MAKE them happen. There is no fairy godmother that is going to do it for you.

While we talk about truly HA dogs, how many here have dealt with a dog that truly was misdiagnosed or misunderstood? Shelter workers are human, capable of making mistakes, including mislabelling anxiety as aggression or self-defense as a "biter".

Interesting comment and question. How do you mislabel a dog a biter? Either it has or it has not. There really is no gray or blurred line there. IMO and experience nearly ALL are misdiagnosed and mislabelled. Every dog has a REASON to bite. Just because you don't see it, or don't understand it does not mean that the reason is any less real to the dog. Some have medical conditions or "wires crossed" but the VAST majority are suffering from fear or anxiety to varying levels and degrees and simply display these traits in a way that APPEARS to the average person to be unprovoked or full-on dominant aggression, which it rarely is.

 

I think "true" dog to human aggression is very rare. Dog bites are common, however, and most are caused by "the culture clash" where people act like normal people but unfortunately their behavior is viewed as very threatening by the dog. I would give a dog who administered one not-very-severe bite a careful evaluation and full history and details of what happened before declaring the dog "aggressive".

We had a dog who was raised under a severe "dominance" regimen who decided to "I'm going to get you before you get me" , she was hypersensitive to any signs that we were going to "show her who's the boss"  or disapproved of her behavior in any way and she would launch what SEEMED on many occasions to be an "unprovoked" attack. She also plotted to kill any men, children, or small dogs she met, the men because she'd learned men were evil and the children and small dogs because they looked like prey animals to her. We sort of rehabbed her but management was far more important.

mudpuppy

I think "true" dog to human aggression is very rare. Dog bites are common, however, and most are caused by "the culture clash" where people act like normal people but unfortunately their behavior is viewed as very threatening by the dog. I would give a dog who administered one not-very-severe bite a careful evaluation and full history and details of what happened before declaring the dog "aggressive".

This is exactly my point. In my own personal experience I have never actually met a dog that I, personally, would term as one with "true" dog to human aggression. For me, this would have to entail a dog that bit humans with absolutely no provoking of any kind and that was not seeing the human as prey, was not responding to a "perceived" threat, was not performing a trained or reinforced behavior, and did not have an underlying medical condition. I am certainly not saying that they do not exist, but I am saying that I have not met one, although all of the dogs that I worked with that were diagnosed as having dog to human aggression were termed so by other trainers, Vets, and trained shelter staff.

We had a dog who was raised under a severe "dominance" regimen who decided to "I'm going to get you before you get me" , she was hypersensitive to any signs that we were going to "show her who's the boss"  or disapproved of her behavior in any way and she would launch what SEEMED on many occasions to be an "unprovoked" attack. She also plotted to kill any men, children, or small dogs she met, the men because she'd learned men were evil and the children and small dogs because they looked like prey animals to her. We sort of rehabbed her but management was far more important.

I certainly have no idea what the words "severe dominance regimen" mean to you, but to me, those words are the same that often trigger what others term dog to human aggression. I am certainly not accusing you of causing your dogs problems, or making a determination of any kind, and am absolutely not attacking you in any way. I am only stating that IME when people with supposed HA dogs have called me about or brought me dogs to work with that were started on what they termed as that type of program at an early age they have often done severe damage to their dogs well being.

 What would we define "true" human aggression as?

A bite is a form off aggression, although I think there is a big difference between bites that are fear motivated (defensive) and bites that are offensive.  

For example, the dog that bites because he's learned to bite first is biting defensively, even if it comes to look offensive. The motivation is self-protection.

Then there are dogs who are willing to bite in order to maintain control. This is similar to the kind of dog that will bully another dog - force is used to intimidate. Well trained guard dogs use this kind of aggression.  This is also why rock solid temperament is so important in dogs like GSDs and Malinois.

Then there is aggression that is seizure like or out of the blue. It is a category unto itself.  

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

This is exactly my point. In my own personal experience I have never actually met a dog that I, personally, would term as one with "true" dog to human aggression. For me, this would have to entail a dog that bit humans with absolutely no provoking of any kind and that was not seeing the human as prey, was not responding to a "perceived" threat, was not performing a trained or reinforced behavior, and did not have an underlying medical condition.

I don't think this is possible. No animal acts without a reason. Even if the dog were biting for the thrill of it, the reinforcement would be the thrill.  

Dog_ma

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

This is exactly my point. In my own personal experience I have never actually met a dog that I, personally, would term as one with "true" dog to human aggression. For me, this would have to entail a dog that bit humans with absolutely no provoking of any kind and that was not seeing the human as prey, was not responding to a "perceived" threat, was not performing a trained or reinforced behavior, and did not have an underlying medical condition.

 

I don't think this is possible. No animal acts without a reason. Even if the dog were biting for the thrill of it, the reinforcement would be the thrill.  

I'm sorry, which part isn't possible? I think I'm having a blonde moment...LOL

Wait, nevermind. I think I misunderstood. I meant reinforced by human, therefor "for the thrill" would not qualify. I should have been more clear. Basically that is really the only way I, personally, would consider it "true" Human Aggression. That is only my opinion, though...

DPU

Pure human aggression meaning that the dog will attack a  human without provocation.  Never have come across one.

Ditto. I think it depends on the trigger of aggression.

Is it aggressive towards strangers?

Is it aggressive out of fear?