Anticipation and Excitement...

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

That I get. I understand that, but not everyone has the ability to put a dog in with a "stable pack of dogs". And that certainly is not the only way. The dogs that I have rehabilitated (and yes some HAVE lived with me during the process) have shown some of the behaviors above as well as serious dog/human aggression with or without extremely high prey drives. I just think it's odd to think that the only way to help a dog is to place it with a stable pack?? Is that what you are saying or am I misunderstanding?

 

The best teachers of dogs is another well trained stable dog.  No human can copy that.  A stable pack can be the dogs within your house, within your neighborhood, your city, etc.  The idea that I work from is to provide the dog with its basic necessities of life and when those needs are satisfied, then the dog can work on its higher levels needs involving socialization.   Exposure to stable dogs outside of the home is easy but it does become bothersome to setup daily or everyotherday playdates during a dog's acclimation period but definitely well worth it.  I don't have to interfer with this social development other than to create a home for the dog and the environment for the dog to continually develop.  These dogs do very well and I have not seen them offer any kind of unwanted behavior.

Well then I applaud your efforts and your results. Unfortunately not everyone has access to a pack of "stable" dogs, certainly not at the local dog park...or at least not one I have ever visited! As I said I respect your way, and am happy that it works for you, although I have to tell you I have worked with many dogs that would have started ripping dogs apart the second they walked through your door, stable ones or otherwise. Your way would not work for me, and, no, from what I see I don't agree with much of it, but I am truly happy that it works for you!

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

How does that work exactly with a dog with serious dog/human aggression?? I cannot see how this environment would be healthy or safe for a dog in that situation. Considering that you have expressed fear of handling "red zone" cases the way that CM does, how do you handle this situation? How do you handle skirmishes or fights in this type of environment if you are not giving boundaries?

This is common knowledge of bully owners, LOL maybe not as evident for other breeds but its simple.....the dogs are kept seperate when not supervised and NEVER should strange dog be brought into a home unless the current dog or pack is extremely stable.

For example pictured here on the forums I see multiple dogs laying around with toys and bones freely in the house. I see dogs eating side by side and thats great and all but with potentially problematic dogs if you remove all of triggers for a fight it is much easier to manage.

For example my sister and I helped rehabilitate a blue pit bull Haiti. She was extremlely fearful of other dogs and would attack out of fear, growling and foaming at the mouth. She was extremly food possessive becasue she had been nearly starved. She was housed outside in a kennel seperate from the other dogs  whom live inside and she gradually bonded with us humans. After she was spayed and had gotten to see Primo several times through the gate without her lashing out we allowed her to meet Primo BECAUSE he is a very stable calm dog. After she warmed up to him.....through 2 weeks (ya a long time) or so and became more confident in us we allowed her to meet Rory who is a female and a bit more high strung. She had already smelled Rory on us and had seen her a couple of times. With a break stick handy we introduced them and Haiti thankfully saw Rory as her surgate momma.

After another month when Haiti had plenty of play time and was starting to be intergrated into our pack and gainign weight and confidence she started testing her place in the pack and that is when we started formal training and NILIF. Its a process and like DPU stated if we had tried to throw her in with the pack and adhere her to our rules right off the bat it would have been a disaster and would have put us all in jeopardy.

Haiti never fully overcame her dog aggression. She is still very wary of other dogs but lives peacefully and safely in a rural area with a very stable family who goes the extra mile to care for her. I was ready to have her put down becasue she is and never will be a society dog BUT the love she has for humans is imeasurable. For all her agression towards dog she is the most sweetest cuddle bug I had ever met.

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

How does that work exactly with a dog with serious dog/human aggression?? I cannot see how this environment would be healthy or safe for a dog in that situation. Considering that you have expressed fear of handling "red zone" cases the way that CM does, how do you handle this situation? How do you handle skirmishes or fights in this type of environment if you are not giving boundaries?

It would be very rare that my rescue organization would take on a human aggression dog.  We have and once this is known, professionals are called in.  We send them to live with dog professionals or send them off to doggie boot camp.  Unfortunately in one case one dog exhibited SRS and was then put down.  PollyAnna, a recent foster of mine, did fear bite a human during her transport to the organization.  That dog was absolutely afraid of all humans and would not come near people.  She came to me because no foster family would take her but because she was a small dog I only agree to take her in on a temporary basis.  She blossomed within the pack of Great Danes, her comfort and from that I was able to bridge her getting comfortable with me and then to other humans.  It was anything I specifically did other than the home environment that I have set up.  She was adopted within a 3 month period.

I don't seem to have any problems with dog on dog aggression.  The rescue group often sends them over when I have a opening.  There was one named Pagnini who was kicked out of 3 foster homes and then kicked out of the vet's kennel.  The dog had no place to go so even though I had 3 other fosters at the time, I found a corner.  She got along great with my GD and fosters but when I introduced a new foster to the pack she went into the 'red zone'.  And yes, she scared me and that initially prevented me in addressing her issue and getting myself calm.  Paganini did influence my home setup and also taught me that managing a behavior should only be temporary and permanent solution should be worked on.  I kept Pags separated from the one dog but from time to time I would make a mistake and the dogs would meet with no event happening but me having a slight heart tremor.  She went to live with a behaviorist and from there she got adopted.  While she was gone, I educated myself in Constructional Aggression Treatment and was prepared to do that protocal.  BTW, CAT worked great on PollyAnna. 

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

Well then I applaud your efforts and your results. Unfortunately not everyone has access to a pack of "stable" dogs, certainly not at the local dog park...or at least not one I have ever visited! As I said I respect your way, and am happy that it works for you, although I have to tell you I have worked with many dogs that would have started ripping dogs apart the second they walked through your door, stable ones or otherwise. Your way would not work for me, and, no, from what I see I don't agree with much of it, but I am truly happy that it works for you!

See, that is very odd for me to hear.  I am part of rescue organization that consist of only foster families.  And we get together all the time and have access to each others stable dogs.  I guess you are right but it is only an initial effort that you have to put in order get good results.  Definitely worth it for the dog's well being and also for the human.

Yep, those are the dogs that come to me, the "ripping dogs apart" and the ones that do the death shake.  Its all in how the dogs are introduced....and I have never had a problem in that area (knock on wood).

That is fine that my approach to rehab wouldn' work for you.  It takes a lot of patience, time, experience, and trust in the dog.  My experience also has shown me that other approaches harm the dog and the owners don't even realize it.  I am not big on controlling a dog's every move and it is very hard for me to teach a dog the basic obedience command....but that is what potential adopters want...a dog that sits, shakes, and rolls over. 

DPU, going back to your original example, how does a dog pack teach other dogs not to be overly-excited about things that are not inherent to dogs?  Collars and car rides I don't think are an inherent part of a dog's knowledge.  I agree that things like bite inhibition, how to play, when to mount, etc are best learned from other dogs, but what about things that humans impose on dogs?  Collars, car rides, eating commercial kibble out of bowls, barriers like doors and crates...

I respect the need for a relationship and also what can be gained with a stable dog pack....but how exactly does that tie in to the topic?  And how does that account for dogs who do not have overly-excited or compulsive reactions due to anticipation who have been raised or trained this way without making use of a dog pack?

So, how does your good behavior due to the great relationships you build with your fosters translate to their new home.  It seems like it wouldn't work out too well in the new place with a new person--wouldn't they have "relationship issues" with the new family especially at first??

I think it's OK for dogs to get excited about things they like--Willow gets excited about walking, grooming, rides.  But, that doesn't mean that she can act all crazy because she can't control herself.  I still expect her to have some self control--sometimes I expect less if it's been a few days since she's done whatever it is.  I find if I don't expect some control from her it might escalate from excitement to aggression. 

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

Well then I applaud your efforts and your results. Unfortunately not everyone has access to a pack of "stable" dogs, certainly not at the local dog park...or at least not one I have ever visited! As I said I respect your way, and am happy that it works for you, although I have to tell you I have worked with many dogs that would have started ripping dogs apart the second they walked through your door, stable ones or otherwise. Your way would not work for me, and, no, from what I see I don't agree with much of it, but I am truly happy that it works for you!

 

See, that is very odd for me to hear.  I am part of rescue organization that consist of only foster families.  And we get together all the time and have access to each others stable dogs.  I guess you are right but it is only an initial effort that you have to put in order get good results.  Definitely worth it for the dog's well being and also for the human.

I do have access to other stable dogs, certainly, but not in a way that any dog I am rehabilitating can just move right on with them and become part of the pack. I put forth a tremendous amount of effort in the rehabilitation and well being of every single dog I work with.

Yep, those are the dogs that come to me, the "ripping dogs apart" and the ones that do the death shake.  Its all in how the dogs are introduced....and I have never had a problem in that area (knock on wood).

I am certainly aware of how to introduce aggressive dogs to each other and I have never had a dog just rip into another one on my watch. Forgive me, but my intitial impression from the way you worded a previous post was that you just walk them in and then let them live in harmony and have no problems leaving unstable dogs unsupervised as long as they are in a
"stable" pack and that just will not work in my world. Even on the off chance that it would I feel it would be careless and asking for trouble.

That is fine that my approach to rehab wouldn' work for you.  It takes a lot of patience, time, experience, and trust in the dog.  My experience also has shown me that other approaches harm the dog and the owners don't even realize it.  I am not big on controlling a dog's every move and it is very hard for me to teach a dog the basic obedience command....but that is what potential adopters want...a dog that sits, shakes, and rolls over. 

I assure you I have plenty of patience, time, experiencem and trust in every dog I work with. If I didn't it would be useless for me to continue as I would be doing more harm than good. I certainly do not control any dogs "every move", but I have no trouble training basic or advanced commands. IMO if you can't ask a dog to do something and have it understand what you are asking there are serious problems with your relationship with your dog. I also find it a bit offensive that because I use a different method you believe I am harming the dogs I save? Do you not have room in such a big heart that can rescue all these needy dogs to try to see a different side? Just because things are different doesn't mean they are wrong. I don't agree with your methods, but I respect that they work for you. Is it so hard for you to do the same?

How does that work in a new home? They do not know basic commands so how do they adjust? Isn't that doing more harm than good?

May I respectfully ask how long you have been rehabilitating agressive/abused dogs for?

SirDrakeOfTheCreek , how do you attempt rehabilitating DA dogs?

Liesje

DPU, going back to your original example, how does a dog pack teach other dogs not to be overly-excited about things that are not inherent to dogs?  Collars and car rides I don't think are an inherent part of a dog's knowledge.  I agree that things like bite inhibition, how to play, when to mount, etc are best learned from other dogs, but what about things that humans impose on dogs?  Collars, car rides, eating commercial kibble out of bowls, barriers like doors and crates...

I respect the need for a relationship and also what can be gained with a stable dog pack....but how exactly does that tie in to the topic?  And how does that account for dogs who do not have overly-excited or compulsive reactions due to anticipation who have been raised or trained this way without making use of a dog pack?

How can I tell you how the pack teaches if the behavior does not exist.  I can show a video of Drizzle interrupting play between two fosters that was getting overly-excited.  On seeing that video, one member here accused Drizzle of having serious socialization problem....I forgot the word that was used.  But then the 2nd video of Drizzle showed her playing with the dog, sort of teaching them proper play and behavior.  That one member did not comment on that video, probably choking on that previous post. 

The title of this thread should have been Anticipation creates Excitement and Disappointment.  I draw a huge distinction between Anticipation and Expectation in that Anticipation has a chance of happening while Expectation has a certainity about it.  Anticipation brings in all the negative quadrants of OC and has a negative effect on the dog's psychy with all those stress hormones being released to cope with the disappointment.  Meanwhile Expectation is all positive. 

Very interesting opinions I have read in this thread......I know DPU's record......so, how about the new entry to posting about rescue......how many and what type of dogs have been rescued by you and how do you deal with severe excited dogs???

I agree with many statements that DPU made, due to my experience in rescue......recent resue entered my home just a couple of months ago, and he is doing geat.........cats, rabbit and all.......lol

I think I bank on anticipation and excitement. And I use the "basic survival" to do it, too.

My dog was born to pull like a freight train. And I can walk him in heel and LLW. I have called him off an imminant fight in midsnarl. I can call him off from chasing the cat in mid-stride. And he has put up with three distinct charges from a loose dog before even barking back once. Because I shamelessly used his excitement for smoked pork chop or brisket led by the anticipation marked with a click. (I guess you'd have to have some of my smoked brisket to truly understand).

I have found that using anticipation and excitement in training has it's advantages and has been more effective than jerking the neck or driving the dog down into the dirt. As for excited behavior that might not be welcome, such as jumping, I have dealth with that in different ways. I have jump on cue. So, it's less likely to be offered except when asked. I have trained "off" which means to disengage from whatever. And also, using "sit." But the happy dance, or tail wagging and tongue hanging out, the Husky wiggle, that's fine.

So, yes, I, the human, decide what is appropriate. That is part and parcel of dogs living with humans. Otherwise, he might be like a dingo and not have to listen to me at all. And he doesn't always get excited when I go to the door. But he knows when we are going for a walk. In a specific context, me grabbing another bottle of water by itself is a good sign. Also, if it's about 9 or 10 in the morning. Those mean more than going to the door.

I believe it's called the pavlovian response and it happens, whether we like it or not. You get what you reinforce.

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

I do have access to other stable dogs, certainly, but not in a way that any dog I am rehabilitating can just move right on with them and become part of the pack. I put forth a tremendous amount of effort in the rehabilitation and well being of every single dog I work with.

I am certainly aware of how to introduce aggressive dogs to each other and I have never had a dog just rip into another one on my watch. Forgive me, but my intitial impression from the way you worded a previous post was that you just walk them in and then let them live in harmony and have no problems leaving unstable dogs unsupervised as long as they are in a "stable" pack and that just will not work in my world. Even on the off chance that it would I feel it would be careless and asking for trouble.

Yes, the new dog is just walked right in, well the new dog is given the opportunity to get familiar with the backyard by itself, getting use to the smell and sounds of the dogs that live here.  Then the pack is just walked in.

Assimilating takes time on the dog's part, and the dog tends to watch on the sidelines and see how and when the dog can assimilate.  Many dogs come to me where they don't how to play or interact with other dogs.  The hurdle to get over in the initial introduction is the F's and when I introduce no 3 F's has ever happened.  I attribute this to a stable pack who has the experience in these introductions.  Mind you, the pack consist of fosters who have been with me for 3, 6, 9, 12 months.  Once this hurdle is overcome then the WANT of being part of the pack comes into play and day after day, that WANT increases until the dog assimilates, interacts, and then reshapes/redefines the pack once again.  I don't interfer with this important social development because it carries over to so much.

...IMO if you can't ask a dog to do something and have it understand what you are asking there are serious problems with your relationship with your dog. I also find it a bit offensive that because I use a different method you believe I am harming the dogs I save? Do you not have room in such a big heart that can rescue all these needy dogs to try to see a different side? Just because things are different doesn't mean they are wrong. I don't agree with your methods, but I respect that they work for you. Is it so hard for you to do the same?

Yeah, if you ask/request a dog to do something and the dog does not respond, that is a relationship issue, not a serious relationship but an easily fixed issue.  That is what I have been saying.  The connection is weak and needs to be strengthend in only a purely positive way.

You have not stated what your "different" methods are and the only contrast I offer is to give the much needed adjustment time for the dog to assimilate on its own and not place any demands or any human expectations on the dog's behavior before the dog is ready (beside teaching COME and potty training). 

Do I see a different side?  Of course I do.  Depending on the dog and if I can determine the dog can handle the training method I use it.  I have no problem Clicker Training a dog and using food treats to teach the basic obedience commands provided the dog can handle it.  With one of my fosters, a hound who had (I repeat had!) true SA, I committed to this dog that I would "cure" this terrible condition and find the most purest positive way to accomplish this.  In rehabbing a SA dog, you've got to get rid or minize the stress, those terrible hormones, and build confidence and trust in the dog.  Based on what I read here I gave Clicker a try....all pretty such said the method is friendly and positive.  I signed up for class and was under the direction of behaviorist who followed the teaching of the The Dog Whisperer.....the other one, Owens.  Marvin had an out of control excitable reaction to the training.  CT was not all positive because withholding a treat until the dog performed the behavior clearly Negative Punishment.  Of course member here said I was doing it wrong, my timing was off, blah blah blah.....I was under the guidance of a professional...and the response was get your money back and fire the guy....all for the sake of hiding the truth.  Marvin was a true SA dog and had a very senstive psychy and any negatives or stress on his psychy made him react....the dog's behavior is the truth.

May I respectfully ask how long you have been rehabilitating agressive/abused dogs for?

Does this really matter?  6 months, 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 45 years.  Do you want a count of how many dogs have lived here and were successfully placed with no returns?  I can tell you that my approach is evolving and the dogs teaches me something new every day that makes me adjust or reconsider what I did before, especially Paganini.   I am on a quest and have been for a long time to find THE purest postive traiing method....I am close but not there yet.

ron2

I think I bank on anticipation and excitement. And I use the "basic survival" to do it, too.

Do you at least see a difference in the dog's emotional response as it pertains to anticipation and expectation?

My dog was born to pull like a freight train. And I can walk him in heel and LLW. I have called him off an imminant fight in midsnarl. I can call him off from chasing the cat in mid-stride. And he has put up with three distinct charges from a loose dog before even barking back once. Because I shamelessly used his excitement for smoked pork chop or brisket led by the anticipation marked with a click. (I guess you'd have to have some of my smoked brisket to truly understand).

Alright, lets put this to rest.  You have one dog and one cat and you live in the south.  Did you ever think that Shadow pulls like a freight train because he is a northern dog breed and likes cold weather and that is where he is trying to go?  Another example of proactive solution in asking WHY and HOW COME the dog is behaving like this.

From the rest of that quote, I am impressed there is a lot of harsh bidding to make the dog stop doing something.  I wonder why I don't encounter such things?

So, yes, I, the human, decide what is appropriate. That is part and parcel of dogs living with humans. Otherwise, he might be like a dingo and not have to listen to me at all. And he doesn't always get excited when I go to the door. But he knows when we are going for a walk. In a specific context, me grabbing another bottle of water by itself is a good sign. Also, if it's about 9 or 10 in the morning. Those mean more than going to the door.

Doesn't sound like a house living in harmony to me.

 haven't read the whole thread! apologies if this is not informative

Bugsy is a highly exciteable dog.  We have to always be careful about our energy so as not to incite manic behavior from him.  There are things that he is excited about going for a walk or bike ride for instance or a kong or getting a toy. Then there are things that despite all our attempts at calming he is TOO excited for; car rides, going away, going to see his girlfriend, sometimes greeting us or a friend.

For instance we are going away tomorrow, I have been laying things our on our guest bed today, he is way too anxious.  Panics when I go to the door, didn't eat his dinner, pacing, etc.

We discussed over dinner tonight that once again we have to go back to not greeting him when we come home.  I'm guessing that this is for life, everytime we try to greet him normally within a few weeks he is insane when we come home. Nice that he is glad to see us but he is super wound up.

So in our case toning things down doesn't squash anything, it helps  keep him balanced