Anticipation and Excitement...

Good point Liesje! We must take into consideration the way dogs show their excitement and of the way they great eachother naturally. In the wild, dogs show much excitment through greeting and also with their young. I'm not arguing the fact that we instill or encourage some of those behaviors just pointing out that we gotta include natural physical signs of joy!

Liesje

For example, we adopted Coke at age 1.5 and when we first got him he would get overly excited and jump on anyone that came in the door.  I have no idea why, or who conditioned him to do this.  He is from a rescue and we have limited information about his training and were just told that he was neglected and not treated right, so I can only assume that he so craved human affection he was not careful in how he got it, and no one ever taught him any manners.

...but I don't think that it's absolutely necessary the how and why is analyzed in order to change the behaviors. 

If I suspect the dog craved human affection and the dog shaped unwanted behavior to get it, I would address the craving and not directly address the unwanted behavior.  With the craving, want, or need satisfied...the dog has no need to do the unwanted behavior....it just simply disappears....that is my experience. 

DPU

If I suspect the dog craved human affection and the dog shaped unwanted behavior to get it, I would address the craving and not directly address the unwanted behavior.  With the craving, want, or need satisfied...the dog has no need to do the unwanted behavior....it just simply disappears....that is my experience. 

Right, but if he is given affection while lunging at people, that is what you are saying before - the human's fault for rewarding and encouraging that heightened level of excitement that is inappropriate for the dog.  Since I do not believe that reaction is healthy, I do not reward it.  The dog gets plenty of affection, just not when lunging at people. 

I do not agree that if we were to reward the lunging with affection, the lunging would disappear.  He has not been rewarded for lunging and thus it is extinct.  I believe that if he was given affection for lunging, we'd still have that behavior today.  Now he gets rewarded for a few alert barks and a wagging tail.

Liesje

  He has not been rewarded for lunging and thus it is extinct.  I believe that if he was given affection for lunging, we'd still have that behavior today. 

To take it one step further sometimes it dosnt even have to be affection.....with some socially deprived dogs they see ANY kind of attention as a reward. So attention can equal affection to them. Some rather have negative attention then none at all.

DPU

   I am also surprised that the responses are reactive and not proactive...what caused this behavior and why is the dog behaving like this?  The human somehow fails to realize they created and influenced the escalation of the behavior.  

I think anyone who is truly dedicated to training dogs asks themselves that question every single time they get a reaction they were not looking for. Obviously, during the process of training if you keep saying sit and the dog just keeps looking at you trying it tomorrow will  not have a different effect. In the situation I just mentioned the trainer has not made it clear what the word "sit" means. It is not the dogs fault it is the trainers. The same goes for excited behavior that is out of control. Although the human responsible for the training of the dog did not necessarily create the behavior it is clear they did nothing to stop it. I suppose you can look at that as "reinforcement by omitting correction" but not everyone has devoted their lives to the training of dogs and may miss the clues as these things escalate. My personal dogs have never had to be toned down, except when they were pups and their boundaries were being set, which is as it should be, but I have helped plenty of others to "tone down" the behaviors of their dogs because they just flat out didn't know any better. The difference is that I do know better. 

But in that other  thread, my point was is it fair to interrupt this pleasurable behavior chain by introducing behavior modification/training.  In my example, the trigger for the WANT is the sight of the collar and the WANT is a car ride.  It is a given that the happy/excited behavior is acceptable.  Since the dog is in a WANT mode and in high drive to get that want, is it fair for me to take advantage of that WANT by "making" the dog rollover as a trick before we continue in the chain.  But then by creating the interruption to the expected (not anticipated) car ride, the dog has to create other behaviors in order to cope.  Those behaviors may be what the humans wants but I see it as a cost to the relationship.

The last paragraph is probably another thread title...blame the human for creating the unwanted behavior, not the dog. 

Personally, I think you have a responsibility to introduce behavior modification/training if the "pleasurable behavior chain" causes the dog to exhibit behavior that is potentially dangerous to the dog or any human nearby. If the excited behavior includes jumping around, jumping up, racing down stairs, or otherwise doing things potentially harmful I will not hesitate to interrupt that behavior. I have worked with MANY abused/neglected dogs that took a LOT of work and patience and trust to remove potentially dangerous behaviors and I have truly never had a dog replace a behavior I interrupted or took away with an unwanted behavior, and IMHO if the dog does you have done something wrong such as moved too fast or asked too much which has created anxiety and instability in said dog, causing him to replace his anxious behavior with a new one. So I do it the way I have stated (with red zones and all others) gearing it towards that specific dog and it's needs and it works for me and the dogs I am there to help. And I assure I have always had trusting solid relationships with every dog I have worked with by the time I was done.

AuroraLove

Liesje

  He has not been rewarded for lunging and thus it is extinct.  I believe that if he was given affection for lunging, we'd still have that behavior today. 

To take it one step further sometimes it dosnt even have to be affection.....with some socially deprived dogs they see ANY kind of attention as a reward. So attention can equal affection to them. Some rather have negative attention then none at all.

I agree and I think this may have been true for Coke, poor boy.  We did not punish or correct for lunging as in yell at him, force him to go in his crate, or push him back down, we just simply turned our back or walked back out the door and waited, or if he did it to visitors, we asked them to withhold eye contact and back up.  He has learned that lunging = nothing; wagging tail = attention, affection, praise, visitors throwing the ball.  Another thing we did was encourage him to "go get the toy!" so now often he will start approaching then stop, go back and find a toy, and then bring a toy to the person.  I won't require him to lie down or sit perfectly still when people come over b/c he's a bubbly dog and when people come over they generally do want to give him affection and play with his toys.  As long as there is no lunging and jumping, he is allowed to be excited and happy.  Sometimes the people greet each other more inappropriately than the dogs! (my in-laws are LOUD and love to yell, big bear hugs, etc).

Liesje

DPU

If I suspect the dog craved human affection and the dog shaped unwanted behavior to get it, I would address the craving and not directly address the unwanted behavior.  With the craving, want, or need satisfied...the dog has no need to do the unwanted behavior....it just simply disappears....that is my experience. 

 

Right, but if he is given affection while lunging at people, that is what you are saying before - the human's fault for rewarding and encouraging that heightened level of excitement that is inappropriate for the dog.  Since I do not believe that reaction is healthy, I do not reward it.  The dog gets plenty of affection, just not when lunging at people. 

I do not agree that if we were to reward the lunging with affection, the lunging would disappear.  He has not been rewarded for lunging and thus it is extinct.  I believe that if he was given affection for lunging, we'd still have that behavior today.  Now he gets rewarded for a few alert barks and a wagging tail.

I couldn't agree more Liesje. I think giving the dog what it wants without it earning it in that type of situation is setting the dog up for a long line of confusion and will make the rehabilitation of said dog take much longer with possible trauma to the owner/trainer if the behavior is not modified before the desired reward is given. In my experience.

DPU, back to your original example....when you pick up a collar and your dogs get excited, are you OK with that or do you not like it? 

Liesje

I do not agree that if we were to reward the lunging with affection, the lunging would disappear.  He has not been rewarded for lunging and thus it is extinct.  I believe that if he was given affection for lunging, we'd still have that behavior today.  Now he gets rewarded for a few alert barks and a wagging tail.

See this is where the analyzing the WHY and HOW THIS CAME ABOUT comes in.  Why would the dog lunge if his craving is satisfied and why would the dog lunge if he trusted his owner WOULD satisfy that craving.  This is a relationship issue.  Rewarding the unwanted behavior of an affection starved dog is just as bad as disciplining for the  unwanted behavior through negative punishment, positive punishment and is just as bad as rewarding for an alternative behavior and relying on the dog to FORGeT about his craving.  No where in the human reactive response does the dog get satisfied with the level of craving wanted.  So the WANT is satisfied outside of the lunging situation in a relationship building mode.

Forgive me, but could you please explain your relationship building? I am confused. Building a relationship with any dog, in any situation requires consistency and boundaries and rules must be set. She did not train the dog that way, but the behavior needed to be modified ASAP because it was dangerous. I would very much like to understand how you can "build a relationship" with a dog without setting rules, and without any type of reinforcement or redirecting?

DPU

See this is where the analyzing the WHY and HOW THIS CAME ABOUT comes in.  Why would the dog lunge if his craving is satisfied and why would the dog lunge if he trusted his owner WOULD satisfy that craving.  This is a relationship issue.  Rewarding the unwanted behavior of an affection starved dog is just as bad as disciplining for the  unwanted behavior through negative punishment, positive punishment and is just as bad as rewarding for an alternative behavior and relying on the dog to FORGeT about his craving.  No where in the human reactive response does the dog get satisfied with the level of craving wanted.  So the WANT is satisfied outside of the lunging situation in a relationship building mode.

But the WHY and the HOW can't be analyzed because the dog was re-homed twice.  It's nice on a show like CM where often it's very clear where the owners went wrong and he can illustrate how they have been unintentionally shaping the unwanted behavior for years, sometimes, but not every owner has that option, as I'm sure you know since you have fosters.

As I said, he has always been given affection, attention, and praise, just NOT when he was lunging at people.  The unwanted behavior and my reaction doesn't extend farther than that particular context.  I'm not going to ignore the dog ALL day because he lunged at someone once in the span of 2 seconds.  You are right, that would be a relationship issue, but that is not the case.

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

Forgive me, but could you please explain your relationship building? I am confused. Building a relationship with any dog, in any situation requires consistency and boundaries and rules must be set. She did not train the dog that way, but the behavior needed to be modified ASAP because it was dangerous. I would very much like to understand how you can "build a relationship" with a dog without setting rules, and without any type of reinforcement or redirecting?

Building a relationship does require consistency, offering stability, and fulfilling all the basic needs of food, water, exercise, companionship, both human and dog, a model for good behavior...and that is a stable pack of dogs.  I bring in fosters and I rehab them.  These dogs come to me with issues and they could have all these problem issues like jumping on people, countersurfing, leash pulling, aggression, fear, digging, etc.  I give the dog a lot of freedom to get acclimated and assimilated into the pack and work on providing the dog with the necessities it needs to be comfortable.  In the process of being all busy and occupied trying to create a new home, the relationship develops, you know bonding and trust.  I keep building on the bonding and the trust and not try to do anything like NILIF that would take some of the trust away.  Same thing with obediance training.  I want the dog to willingly do the things I ask but that won't happen unless the relationship is stronger than any other motivator.  I don't establish any rules or boundaries or even start on basic obedience until their 2nd or 3rd month with me.  I just let the dog be a dog within a dog friendly house and that seems to be enough for the dog to present good behavior all the time.

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

Forgive me, but could you please explain your relationship building? I am confused. Building a relationship with any dog, in any situation requires consistency and boundaries and rules must be set. She did not train the dog that way, but the behavior needed to be modified ASAP because it was dangerous. I would very much like to understand how you can "build a relationship" with a dog without setting rules, and without any type of reinforcement or redirecting?

 

Building a relationship does require consistency, offering stability, and fulfilling all the basic needs of food, water, exercise, companionship, both human and dog, a model for good behavior...and that is a stable pack of dogs.  I bring in fosters and I rehab them.  These dogs come to me with issues and they could have all these problem issues like jumping on people, countersurfing, leash pulling, aggression, fear, digging, etc.

That I get. I understand that, but not everyone has the ability to put a dog in with a "stable pack of dogs". And that certainly is not the only way. The dogs that I have rehabilitated (and yes some HAVE lived with me during the process) have shown some of the behaviors above as well as serious dog/human aggression with or without extremely high prey drives. I just think it's odd to think that the only way to help a dog is to place it with a stable pack?? Is that what you are saying or am I misunderstanding?

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

Forgive me, but could you please explain your relationship building? I am confused. Building a relationship with any dog, in any situation requires consistency and boundaries and rules must be set. She did not train the dog that way, but the behavior needed to be modified ASAP because it was dangerous. I would very much like to understand how you can "build a relationship" with a dog without setting rules, and without any type of reinforcement or redirecting?

 

  I don't establish any rules or boundaries or even start on basic obedience until their 2nd or 3rd month with me.  I just let the dog be a dog within a dog friendly house and that seems to be enough for the dog to present good behavior all the time.

 

How does that work exactly with a dog with serious dog/human aggression?? I cannot see how this environment would be healthy or safe for a dog in that situation. Considering that you have expressed fear of handling "red zone" cases the way that CM does, how do you handle this situation? How do you handle skirmishes or fights in this type of environment if you are not giving boundaries?

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

That I get. I understand that, but not everyone has the ability to put a dog in with a "stable pack of dogs". And that certainly is not the only way. The dogs that I have rehabilitated (and yes some HAVE lived with me during the process) have shown some of the behaviors above as well as serious dog/human aggression with or without extremely high prey drives. I just think it's odd to think that the only way to help a dog is to place it with a stable pack?? Is that what you are saying or am I misunderstanding?

The best teachers of dogs is another well trained stable dog.  No human can copy that.  A stable pack can be the dogs within your house, within your neighborhood, your city, etc.  The idea that I work from is to provide the dog with its basic necessities of life and when those needs are satisfied, then the dog can work on its higher levels needs involving socialization.   Exposure to stable dogs outside of the home is easy but it does become bothersome to setup daily or everyotherday playdates during a dog's acclimation period but definitely well worth it.  I don't have to interfer with this social development other than to create a home for the dog and the environment for the dog to continually develop.  These dogs do very well and I have not seen them offer any kind of unwanted behavior.