Suggestions for Coke ** NILIF people look at pg 5 **

 I'm not sure it's as necessary to listen to those with experience....as it is to listen to those who's interactions with their dogs one respects.  Regardless of how many months or years experience someone has, there will always be someone with more, always be someone with less, and always someone with a different opinion.  Everyone starts somewhere, and everyone has to be comfortable with their own actions/decisions. 

Chuffy

In the case of dogs like Justin, LIESJE is there to "come to the rescue of the bully-ee".  He is. Not. Allowed.  To.  Bully.  

If another dog does not tell him that, or if a confrontation looks likely to ensue, Liesje has already SAID she would step in... in fact has already done so.

I am starting feel like Snownose....in a twilight zone here.  Liesje did not prepare Coke for this situation.  She had not control over him because from statements here in this thread, Coke does not know the COME command and she can not interrupt the dog's activity from a distance.  Very basic things a dog should know before ever leaving the home. 

Chuffy

Benedict

Dog_ma

Not all breeds come easily to recalls. Etc. etc. I will stand up and admit I am an utter failure as a dog owner because at least 50% of the time, my hard headed ridgeback doesn't quiver when I yell "HEY!" Snort. It must me my fault he's not biddable and doesn't hand on my every wish. Woe.

 

Hey, I am intentionally getting a dog that is bred to be exactly that way.  Yikes.  LOL.  

 

Welcome to the ranks of Miserable Failure Dog Owners.  We're a nice bunch  

HA!  Thanks....do I get some kind of badge?  LOL. 

Chuffy

In the case of dogs like Justin, LIESJE is there to "come to the rescue of the bully-ee".  He is. Not. Allowed.  To.  Bully.  

If another dog does not tell him that, or if a confrontation looks likely to ensue, Liesje has already SAID she would step in... in fact has already done so.
 

How was she able to do that when all the dogs were in a large area and she could not get there on time.......timing is everything...? (Liesje's statement on the area )

DPU

Yes, Coke should not be in a situation that he can't handle.  And he should not have been brought into that situation because he does not know the COME command and you could not interrupt his activity.  I think you said you had to physically remove him, so defiitely he was not ready. 

I disagree. I've seen dogs show dramatic improvement when put in a situation they can't handle (bullying) and given time outs for inappropriate behavior. If a dog were biting, or starting dramatic scream fests, then no. But being a pain in the butt is not a major risk factor for badness, as long as the owner is involved.

Other dogs do and will intervene in bullying, but as mentioned only some dogs do that. I wouldn't rely too much on that. On the other hand, I always breathe easier at the dog park when Otto is there. He's a ginormous rottie, totally mellow. Spends his time getting butt scratches from the people. But he will NOT stand for fighting, and physically puts himself  between any two dogs that start to get heated. I also breathe easier when Mazie is there. She's a great pyrenees, and a doll. Her m.o. is to engage a bully in play. She will step in and distract a bully without being aggressive. Really cool to see.

Dog_ma

He's a ginormous rottie, totally mellow. Spends his time getting butt scratches from the people. But he will NOT stand for fighting, and physically puts himself  between any two dogs that start to get heated. I also breathe easier when Mazie is there. She's a great pyrenees, and a doll. Her m.o. is to engage a bully in play. She will step in and distract a bully without being aggressive. Really cool to see.

How sweet, but, how many dogs are the saviours for other dogs when it comes to a bad situation?

snownose

Chuffy

In the case of dogs like Justin, LIESJE is there to "come to the rescue of the bully-ee".  He is. Not. Allowed.  To.  Bully.  

If another dog does not tell him that, or if a confrontation looks likely to ensue, Liesje has already SAID she would step in... in fact has already done so.
 

How was she able to do that when all the dogs were in a large area and she could not get there on time.......timing is everything...? (Liesje's statement on the area )

Since this one seems a bit confusing, I'll lay it out for you.

Liesje follows the dogs. If Justin is being bullied, he will at some point stop or slow in a crouching position. Liesje is young and physically fit, so it can't be too hard for her to take advantage of  that moment. Timing does not have to be perfect. There isn't a one second window. Justin slows, Liesje grabs Coke however she needs to do it, and ta da! Time out.

I know how much you value experience. You'll be happy to know I'm speaking from it. 

DPU

Liesje

Then what do you suggest?  First you said he shouldn't be in situations he can't handle, which suggests removing him and not allowing interaction with Justin, since that's what seems to set him off bullying (Justin is the only dog this has happened with). 

Yes, Coke should not be in a situation that he can't handle.  And he should not have been brought into that situation because he does not know the COME command and you could not interrupt his activity.  I think you said you had to physically remove him, so defiitely he was not ready.  You have knowledge of this unacceptable behavior and opportunity to address it.  That is what I would do as I have outlined in a previous post. 

But I think the recall and the play dynamics are two different issues.  Maybe dogs on iDog have a perfect "come", but very very few of the dogs in Coke's level at the club, or the family dogs at the parks and dog parks have perfect recalls, or even ANY recall, and yet the dogs engage in play just fine.  It's a huge aspect of their exercise and their socialization.  I don't think he should be kept back from play and socialization because his recall is not perfect, I think we will need other ways to manage his play in the absence of a perfect recall (the body blocking, drag line, and noise aversions that have been suggested) and continue focusing on developing the recall.  I don't think play is something a dog is "ready" for.  Unless the dog has some big issue like being way too fearful or being dog aggressive, I think play is just a very natural an inherent part of being a dog, not something that has to be trained beforehand.

I *did* interrupt the activity, just not with a "come" command.  He was given three chances and he did not settle so he was removed.

DPU

Chuffy

In the case of dogs like Justin, LIESJE is there to "come to the rescue of the bully-ee".  He is. Not. Allowed.  To.  Bully.  

If another dog does not tell him that, or if a confrontation looks likely to ensue, Liesje has already SAID she would step in... in fact has already done so.

I am starting feel like Snownose....in a twilight zone here.  Liesje did not prepare Coke for this situation.  She had not control over him because from statements here in this thread, Coke does not know the COME command and she can not interrupt the dog's activity from a distance.  Very basic things a dog should know before ever leaving the home. 

As Liesje said, this is a Catch 22.  He needs to be around other dogs to learn "come" in that environment, but he can't be exposed to them until he knows "come"....

A recall from play is pretty advanced stuff for Coke and keeping him AWAY from otehr dogs while she does that training is going to do more harm than god IMO.  When Coke DOES finally meet other dogs after a lot more Recall Training, he is STILL not going to be more practised in recall from play or more versed in dog manners.  So what will have been achieved?  Liesje does daily training with him and arranges regular play dates.  How is that NOT preparing him to play with Justin????

I don't understand the criticism either.  I think a few are criticising for criticism's sake.... 

Dog_ma

I disagree. I've seen dogs show dramatic improvement when put in a situation they can't handle (bullying) and given time outs for inappropriate behavior. If a dog were biting, or starting dramatic scream fests, then no. But being a pain in the butt is not a major risk factor for badness, as long as the owner is involved.

Once a problem is identified either being the bully-er or being a bully-ee, then it is the owner's responsibility to address the problem and not sweep it under the carpet.  And the fix should not be to use unsuspecting owners and their dogs as guinea pigs.  As a responsible dog owner and a responsible fosterer, I am keenly aware of the my dog's behavior when in a public social setting. 

Benedict

Chuffy

Benedict

Dog_ma

Not all breeds come easily to recalls. Etc. etc. I will stand up and admit I am an utter failure as a dog owner because at least 50% of the time, my hard headed ridgeback doesn't quiver when I yell "HEY!" Snort. It must me my fault he's not biddable and doesn't hand on my every wish. Woe.

 

Hey, I am intentionally getting a dog that is bred to be exactly that way.  Yikes.  LOL.  

 

Welcome to the ranks of Miserable Failure Dog Owners.  We're a nice bunch  

 

HA!  Thanks....do I get some kind of badge?  LOL. 

Sure.  I'm going to start making them.  Or maybe we could have it in our sig - instead of "ELitist dog owner" I am going to have "Miserable Failure of a Dog Owner... And Proud of It"  I think it could catch on  

snownose

Dog_ma

He's a ginormous rottie, totally mellow. Spends his time getting butt scratches from the people. But he will NOT stand for fighting, and physically puts himself  between any two dogs that start to get heated. I also breathe easier when Mazie is there. She's a great pyrenees, and a doll. Her m.o. is to engage a bully in play. She will step in and distract a bully without being aggressive. Really cool to see.

 

How sweet, but, how many dogs are the saviours for other dogs when it comes to a bad situation?

You missed the part of my post in which I said I wouldn't rely on that. And it is sweet. 

Today a dog I know got removed from the dog park for trying to protect Eko and one of his best buddies. They didn't need protection, so it was an over reaction and not acceptable, but at least there was a noble reason behind his bad behavior, lol. (An Akita got grumbly with Eko and his BFF who is also a young male. It wasn't being aggressive, but their "older brother" Dexter heard the noise and jumped on the Akita. Very out of place for Dexter. He's a large, dominant and slightly aloof dog who Eko and his BFF worship. They follow him around giving him muzzle licks like puppies).

Chuffy

As Liesje said, this is a Catch 22.  He needs to be around other dogs to learn "come" in that environment, but he can't be exposed to them until he knows "come"....

No, there is no Catch 22.  From previous post, Coke does not know COME in any situation.  As a matter of fact, I think I read Coke always runs aways when called.  Yes, this should be criticized because there should be no excuse and I don't understand how this could be with trainers and behaviorist involved. 

LOL, our class better not get rained out Monday!  Now there is all this anticipation of when Coke and Justin meet again...*cue Jaws theme song* .....

As a side note, Coke was out in the yard today and totally ignored another dog, something he never would have done when we first got him (I think he was so obsessed with playing with other dogs he would have played until he dropped dead of exhaustion!).  He was sniffing around and my neighbors brought out their pit bull Caddy.  Previously, Caddy has been kept on their deck.  Now they got this tie-out but they tied it around a bush on our property, so he can reach Coke in our yard.  Caddy started barking like a fool and dancing around, Coke simply glanced over his shoulder, then walked over to the shade and plopped down.  It was going to rain so I called for Coke and he came right back to the door.  Good boy.  I think DH made a lot of progress with him yesterday at the pet store, just in one long session.  Now that he has seen how Coke *can* be controlled and have self-control, he seems more devoted to working at this every day.  I think Coke is a good dog for DH b/c he can be quite stubborn (maybe that Chow thing).  Coke teaches us patience, baby steps.

Dog_ma

Since this one seems a bit confusing, I'll lay it out for you.

Liesje follows the dogs. If Justin is being bullied, he will at some point stop or slow in a crouching position. Liesje is young and physically fit, so it can't be too hard for her to take advantage of  that moment. Timing does not have to be perfect. There isn't a one second window. Justin slows, Liesje grabs Coke however she needs to do it, and ta da! Time out.

I know how much you value experience. You'll be happy to know I'm speaking from it. 

Interesting, I am sure I read somewhere that Justin was bumped into many times.......yes? And, yes, timing, when it comes to aversive methods is important......your experience should have taught you that.......right?