Suggestions for Coke ** NILIF people look at pg 5 **

I have to say I do not think anything is wrong with Coke, and IMO you're not doing anything wrong by your dogs, either.

Sometimes when there's a weaker energy dog (Justin) some dogs that have a stronger energy (Coke) will try to entice him to play. Sometimes the stronger energy dog will "bully" only because they *really* want the other dog to play- now!

From what I've read of your posts, your dogs get more activity, play time, walks, and training- which is good!- than most dogs that I know, and I know alot being a dog walker with 40+ clients!

snownose

Liesje, you were entertaining the idea of getting another playmate for Coke so he could learn his lesson.......if that doesn't cry out for leadership, I don't know what does....."You", yes, you are responsible for making sure things run right with your two dogs.....right?

Yes, but I don't have a problem with dogs setting boundaries for each other either.  I think there's a huge spectrum of communications and behaviors between perfect harmony and a dog fight.  I don't know that I've ever seen a group of dogs play without any instances of dogs saying "no, that's not appropriate" to the other dog, or doing play bows and little twirls to say "come on let's play!".  I've never seen dogs play with other dogs solely based on the boundaries and rules of play established by human beings.  As for puppies, I think they learn things like bite inhibition from each other.  Yes, a human can teach that, but not nearly as effectively as littermates can.  If things are not "running right" during the play time, whoever is causing the problems will be dealt with and possibly removed.  There are somethings I think dogs learn more quickly and effectively from each other than from humans, and appropriate play is one of them. I think that expecting a human to constantly interrupt the play to say "yes do that" or "no don't do that" is not as effective.  If the dog is just not getting it, then of course the human should step in and correct (body block as suggested in this thread, a strong noise aversion if possible, a verbal correction if the dog responds to that) or remove the dog from the play group.

snownose

Liesje, you were entertaining the idea of getting another playmate for Coke so he could learn his lesson.......if that doesn't cry out for leadership, I don't know what does....."You", yes, you are responsible for making sure things run right with your two dogs.....right?

 Emph added by me - another often dog can teach dog manners better than a human can, because, well, humans are not dogs.  I don't see where leadership comes into that

Veering back to topic; leadership suggests control.  I think what Coke needs here is SELF control, not more control exteranly (from Liesje).  I think the suggestions about self control exercises and NILIF and the book "Control Unleashed" are what I would go for in Liesje's situation.

DPU

Liesje

If he continues to bully Justin, he will not play with Justin, period.  There will be no "issue" because I simply won't allow bullying.

Liesje, I hope you don't feel that you are being baited.  I just don't agree with your solution to just not allow Coke to play with Justin and then that solves the bullying issue.  The problem still exist and it will happen again in the future with another dog, possible Kenya or the new dog.  I see that if it is not properly addressed, the problem will escalate. 

Then what do you suggest?  First you said he shouldn't be in situations he can't handle, which suggests removing him and not allowing interaction with Justin, since that's what seems to set him off bullying (Justin is the only dog this has happened with).  I would rather put him back with Justin (not with Kenya this time) and try some of the things others have suggested earlier in the thread.  Now if Coke had been aggressive or Justin had shown signs of being upset, it would be a much bigger deal to me.  After I took Coke off to the side for a "time out", Justin continued to approach him and engage him in play.  This was ultimately why Coke was removed.  He didn't settle down and I felt it was unfair for him to be constantly teased by the other dogs approaching him while he was supposed to have a time out to cool down.  I just don't agree with one dog being leashed in a dog park situation.  To me, THAT is a recipe for disaster.  If Justin had run away from Coke with his tail tucked, I'd feel a lot differently about giving it another try.  I agree with others that Justin is a very submissive dog.  He's a submissive urinator too.  I think both dogs can learn from each other.  Coke needs to learn to take it down a notch with a dog like Justin, and Justin needs to learn that he *can* tell Coke "no, don't do it like that!" if Coke bothers him.  Since I've never seen this sort of result with any other dog Coke has ever played with, I am not too concerned if the solution is just that Coke and Justin don't play.  There are so many other dogs at that club that he plays with just fine.  Maybe a super submissive dog and a very hyper, playful dog like Coke just do not mix.  I agree the recall IS an issue and it will continue to be a huge priority for us (as it has been), but I don't think the solution is to constantly be recalling him off.  Then it seems there's no point in allowing him to play with that dog if they aren't really even playing, you know?

Chuffy

snownose

Liesje, you were entertaining the idea of getting another playmate for Coke so he could learn his lesson.......if that doesn't cry out for leadership, I don't know what does....."You", yes, you are responsible for making sure things run right with your two dogs.....right?

 

 Emph added by me - another often dog can teach dog manners better than a human can, because, well, humans are not dogs.  I don't see where leadership comes into that

The opposite can also happen and if Coke does his bullying thing to some dogs and not taught differently, what else is left but leadership.  Another dog is not going to come to the bully-ee rescue.

DPU

The opposite can also happen and if Coke does his bullying thing to some dogs and not taught differently, what else is left but leadership.  Another dog is not going to come to the bully-ee rescue.

 

Not necessarily true.  I have witnessed my own dog step in and distract the more boisterous of a pair of playing dogs if the one getting "bullied" seems to be distressed.   

Liesje

Then what do you suggest?  First you said he shouldn't be in situations he can't handle, which suggests removing him and not allowing interaction with Justin, since that's what seems to set him off bullying (Justin is the only dog this has happened with). 

Yes, Coke should not be in a situation that he can't handle.  And he should not have been brought into that situation because he does not know the COME command and you could not interrupt his activity.  I think you said you had to physically remove him, so defiitely he was not ready.  You have knowledge of this unacceptable behavior and opportunity to address it.  That is what I would do as I have outlined in a previous post. 

I really don't know how to explain this any better than what I have done before.......when introducing dogs to other dogs, even in play sessions, leadership and control of dogs is "SO" important.......all the years of owning, and rescuing dogs have taught me well.......am I dreaming here??? I feel like I am in a twilight zone..........argh......

Benedict

DPU

The opposite can also happen and if Coke does his bullying thing to some dogs and not taught differently, what else is left but leadership.  Another dog is not going to come to the bully-ee rescue.

 

Not necessarily true.  I have witnessed my own dog step in and distract the more boisterous of a pair of playing dogs if the one getting "bullied" seems to be distressed.   

I stand corrected.  My Drizzle would do the same but I think Drizzle and Ben are too far away to help poor Justin out.

snownose

I really don't know how to explain this any better than what I have done before.......when introducing dogs to other dogs, even in play sessions, leadership and control of dogs is "SO" important.......all the years of owning, and rescuing dogs have taught me well.......am I dreaming here??? I feel like I am in a twilight zone..........argh......

I don't disagree with that....it's easy to make mistakes when first learning how....but making mistakes is an integral part of the learning process.  IME, sometimes the best thing to do is approach the problem from a different direction. 

DPU

Chuffy

snownose

Liesje, you were entertaining the idea of getting another playmate for Coke so he could learn his lesson.......if that doesn't cry out for leadership, I don't know what does....."You", yes, you are responsible for making sure things run right with your two dogs.....right?

 

 Emph added by me - another often dog can teach dog manners better than a human can, because, well, humans are not dogs.  I don't see where leadership comes into that

The opposite can also happen and if Coke does his bullying thing to some dogs and not taught differently, what else is left but leadership.  Another dog is not going to come to the bully-ee rescue.

 

In the case of dogs like Justin, LIESJE is there to "come to the rescue of the bully-ee".  He is. Not. Allowed.  To.  Bully.  

If another dog does not tell him that, or if a confrontation looks likely to ensue, Liesje has already SAID she would step in... in fact has already done so.
 

Oh lord.

I like how Liesje is simultaneously over training Coke (too much agility and formal obedience!) and under training Coke (no reliable leave it or recall!). Makes one wonder about the quality of advice. I'm not intending to be rude for rude's sake, but the chorus of criticism makes no sense.

Coke does not have any *serious* problems that I have seen Liesje mention. Her only real fault is in being honest that her dogs aren't perfect and that she's open to new ideas.  

I see dogs with Coke's "play problems" EVERY day. I see how they play with dogs they know, how they react to dogs they don't know, and what kinds of dogs they choose to push around. I spend 1-2 hours a day watching dogs interact. I find it fascinating.

I can't claim years of rescue, or a house of 10 dogs. I can claim a lot of hours logged, watching dogs play. Sorry to toot my own horn, but I am pretty d*** good at predicting who will cause trouble, what two dogs will get along with the the rest of the dogs and not each other, etc. I can usually tell before a dog enters the park how it will interact, and how the others will react to it.

All Coke needs in playtime is boundaries. It is very simple. Bonita put it succinctly, while I blah blah on. He is more likely to bully youngish males who have medium to high energy and are slightly on the submissive side.  Teach him that behavior means the fun pauses. Simple. And FTR, the process of teaching that IS leadership.

All of the speculating on how Coke should respond to Liesje if their relationship were "right" is ridiculous and frankly amusing. He is a mixed breed with a mysterious past. Not all breeds respond much to a "hey." Not all breeds come easily to recalls. Etc. etc. I will stand up and admit I am an utter failure as a dog owner because at least 50% of the time, my hard headed ridgeback doesn't quiver when I yell "HEY!" Snort. It must me my fault he's not biddable and doesn't hand on my every wish. Woe.

Liesje, I know you know it, but Coke is FINE. Kenya is FINE.  

Benedict

snownose

I really don't know how to explain this any better than what I have done before.......when introducing dogs to other dogs, even in play sessions, leadership and control of dogs is "SO" important.......all the years of owning, and rescuing dogs have taught me well.......am I dreaming here??? I feel like I am in a twilight zone..........argh......

 

I don't disagree with that....it's easy to make mistakes when first learning how....but making mistakes is an integral part of the learning process.  IME, sometimes the best thing to do is approach the problem from a different direction. 

Yes, that is why it is so important to pay attention to folks with experience......one good attack can teach a dog a valuable lesson, but, will the dog survive or be able to walk away from a confrontation......owners need to step up and enforce leadership.......just my experience......

Dog_ma

Not all breeds come easily to recalls. Etc. etc. I will stand up and admit I am an utter failure as a dog owner because at least 50% of the time, my hard headed ridgeback doesn't quiver when I yell "HEY!" Snort. It must me my fault he's not biddable and doesn't hand on my every wish. Woe.

Hey, I am intentionally getting a dog that is bred to be exactly that way.  Yikes.  LOL.  

Benedict

Dog_ma

Not all breeds come easily to recalls. Etc. etc. I will stand up and admit I am an utter failure as a dog owner because at least 50% of the time, my hard headed ridgeback doesn't quiver when I yell "HEY!" Snort. It must me my fault he's not biddable and doesn't hand on my every wish. Woe.

 

Hey, I am intentionally getting a dog that is bred to be exactly that way.  Yikes.  LOL.  

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